1
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:03,290
you're listening to IRA the inception

2
00:00:29,929 --> 00:00:27,920
archangels ghosts and Bigfoot oh my it's

3
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:29,939
just another night for Supernatural

4
00:00:35,510 --> 00:00:33,090
girls real stories real answers to

5
00:00:37,850 --> 00:00:35,520
life's biggest supernatural mysteries

6
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:37,860
and now for another exciting interview

7
00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:40,290
with paranormal experts in this world

8
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:43,470
and others here's your host paranormal

9
00:00:57,460 --> 00:00:46,530
researcher Patricia Baker on the one the

10
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:01,250
welcome everyone to a very special show

11
00:01:06,050 --> 00:01:05,250
tonight on Supernatural girls radio I am

12
00:01:08,870 --> 00:01:06,060
your host

13
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:08,880
Patricia Baker and I am here with my

14
00:01:15,740 --> 00:01:12,570
co-host numerologist Patricia Kirkman PK

15
00:01:20,170 --> 00:01:15,750
how are you tonight absolutely fabulous

16
00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:20,180
oh that's how I am about tonight's show

17
00:01:25,790 --> 00:01:23,280
it is going to be exciting and it's a

18
00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:25,800
real heart-wrenching show yeah but it's

19
00:01:32,810 --> 00:01:29,460
one we have to do we absolutely have to

20
00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:32,820
do this show tonight and I want to

21
00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:35,700
introduce everybody first off to our

22
00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:38,820
guests who are all amazing and talented

23
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:41,910
people who are with us this evening we

24
00:01:47,540 --> 00:01:45,210
have Renee Barnett Renee is the host of

25
00:01:50,150 --> 00:01:47,550
night vision radio which is another

26
00:01:53,210 --> 00:01:50,160
great show on inception radio network

27
00:01:55,460 --> 00:01:53,220
her show airs Thursday evening at 10:30

28
00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:55,470
Eastern don't miss it she's got a great

29
00:01:59,749 --> 00:01:56,729
show every week

30
00:02:03,710 --> 00:01:59,759
Renee is also a television and film

31
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:03,720
producer in LA and she's an expert on

32
00:02:10,550 --> 00:02:07,530
the facts of this case the Oklahoma Girl

33
00:02:11,990 --> 00:02:10,560
Scout murders and it was Renee who

34
00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:12,000
brought this to our attention

35
00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:14,790
piqué and you and I know when we heard

36
00:02:21,650 --> 00:02:16,800
this case it just about ripped our

37
00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:21,660
hearts out it is a very very tragic case

38
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:24,930
it's devastating to know the facts of it

39
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:29,010
but what we all knew instantly is that

40
00:02:34,850 --> 00:02:32,010
this is about a battle between the light

41
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:34,860
and the darkness that's what this is

42
00:02:40,369 --> 00:02:36,810
about and we wanted to have this show

43
00:02:43,369 --> 00:02:40,379
and shed some light on the paranormal

44
00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:43,379
aspects of this on the Native American

45
00:02:50,690 --> 00:02:46,560
medicine involved in this how things

46
00:02:53,930 --> 00:02:50,700
went wrong and of course our hearts go

47
00:02:57,020 --> 00:02:53,940
out still to the families who lost their

48
00:03:00,800 --> 00:02:57,030
beautiful little girls and this horrible

49
00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:00,810
horrible murder and we also have Michael

50
00:03:07,099 --> 00:03:03,510
Bastien who is an Algonquin Native

51
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:07,109
American medicine man Michael is an a

52
00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:08,730
was an apprentice

53
00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:11,550
- matt baer anderson Tuscarora medicine

54
00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:14,879
man one of the most unusual and

55
00:03:21,530 --> 00:03:18,120
well-known medicine man he really was

56
00:03:23,390 --> 00:03:21,540
known globally and michael was his

57
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:23,400
apprentice and michaels with us tonight

58
00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:28,050
we also have world-renowned psychic

59
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:32,790
medium-- george lugo now George has

60
00:03:37,789 --> 00:03:34,530
worked with a number of investigators

61
00:03:40,729 --> 00:03:37,799
including Scotland Yard and we all know

62
00:03:43,130 --> 00:03:40,739
George he's extremely talented very

63
00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:43,140
detailed in his readings and his

64
00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:45,209
communication with the other side he is

65
00:03:50,979 --> 00:03:47,790
going to be speaking to the other side

66
00:03:57,770 --> 00:03:50,989
tonight about what happened in Oklahoma

67
00:03:58,220 --> 00:03:57,780
that night in 1977 so Rene welcome to

68
00:04:00,589 --> 00:03:58,230
the show

69
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:00,599
let's start with you I know you have all

70
00:04:05,930 --> 00:04:03,690
the facts on this case and you know all

71
00:04:08,780 --> 00:04:05,940
of the paranormal intrigue that occurred

72
00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:08,790
can you tell us a little bit about what

73
00:04:14,180 --> 00:04:11,790
happened and how the paranormal played

74
00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:14,190
into this sure first of all thanks for

75
00:04:19,610 --> 00:04:17,789
having me in hi everyone I don't know

76
00:04:22,370 --> 00:04:19,620
that I would call myself an expert on

77
00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:22,380
the case but I guess I do know as much

78
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:25,560
about it as as a lot as probably very

79
00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:27,690
few people a few other people do besides

80
00:04:31,210 --> 00:04:28,860
the people that were involved in the

81
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:31,220
case because it's been sort of an

82
00:04:36,890 --> 00:04:34,289
obsession of mine ever since it happened

83
00:04:38,750 --> 00:04:36,900
I heard about it that night after the

84
00:04:40,570 --> 00:04:38,760
little girls were discovered on the car

85
00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:40,580
radio as I was driving across country

86
00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:43,710
leaving my home in Oklahoma to come to

87
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:47,580
Los Angeles and of course what what

88
00:04:51,890 --> 00:04:49,410
happened was three little girl scouts

89
00:04:55,129 --> 00:04:51,900
were murdered on the first night of

90
00:04:57,620 --> 00:04:55,139
their encampment at a Girl Scout camp

91
00:05:01,820 --> 00:04:57,630
known as Camp Scott on Grand Lake in

92
00:05:03,379 --> 00:05:01,830
eastern Oklahoma it was really

93
00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:03,389
interesting I don't know how many people

94
00:05:09,409 --> 00:05:06,360
heard my show last week which was

95
00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:09,419
rebroadcast just before this show but it

96
00:05:14,210 --> 00:05:11,520
kind of laid out more of the facts of

97
00:05:17,899 --> 00:05:14,220
the case last week and then prior to the

98
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:17,909
show but just briefly the the major

99
00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:20,370
suspect ultimately turned out to be a

100
00:05:26,809 --> 00:05:22,409
man by the name of Jean Lee

101
00:05:29,929 --> 00:05:26,819
Roy Hart who was also happened to be a

102
00:05:30,829 --> 00:05:29,939
Cherokee Indian he was a local football

103
00:05:34,879 --> 00:05:30,839
hero

104
00:05:37,189 --> 00:05:34,889
and you know a strapping young man so

105
00:05:39,169 --> 00:05:37,199
nobody kind of wanted to believe that

106
00:05:41,239 --> 00:05:39,179
someone like that especially the

107
00:05:43,339 --> 00:05:41,249
Cherokee people didn't want to believe

108
00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:43,349
one of their own could have committed

109
00:05:48,829 --> 00:05:46,529
this crime and so he was able to evade

110
00:05:51,619 --> 00:05:48,839
law enforcement for a long time he

111
00:05:54,619 --> 00:05:51,629
became the biggest manhunt in Oklahoma

112
00:05:56,749 --> 00:05:54,629
history and was only ultimately were

113
00:05:59,449 --> 00:05:56,759
able to track him and bring him in once

114
00:06:03,319 --> 00:05:59,459
the Oklahoma State Bureau of

115
00:06:06,790 --> 00:06:03,329
Investigation agents sort of returned

116
00:06:09,139 --> 00:06:06,800
their own native heritage they even

117
00:06:13,609 --> 00:06:09,149
acquired the help of their own medicine

118
00:06:16,489 --> 00:06:13,619
man who gave them medicine too for them

119
00:06:17,779 --> 00:06:16,499
to wear for protection for themselves to

120
00:06:19,369 --> 00:06:17,789
put on their bullets and to put on the

121
00:06:23,739 --> 00:06:19,379
track and we can go into more that later

122
00:06:26,179 --> 00:06:23,749
but basically it was controversial case

123
00:06:29,209 --> 00:06:26,189
gene heart was said to have had the help

124
00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:29,219
of a powerful medicine man and he was

125
00:06:36,939 --> 00:06:33,089
ultimately acquitted by a jury in to the

126
00:06:39,980 --> 00:06:36,949
shock of of many people later DNA

127
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:39,990
confirmed because this case happened in

128
00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:44,490
1977 there was no DNA but later a and

129
00:06:52,509 --> 00:06:47,969
they did confirm that it was consistent

130
00:06:56,569 --> 00:06:52,519
with his his DNA and also the sperm was

131
00:06:57,829 --> 00:06:56,579
was unusual so they were able to connect

132
00:07:02,629 --> 00:06:57,839
him to the crime scene by physical

133
00:07:05,529 --> 00:07:02,639
evidence and by DNA evidence now also

134
00:07:08,929 --> 00:07:05,539
wasn't he an escapee from prison was

135
00:07:13,189 --> 00:07:08,939
yeah that was that was the other thing

136
00:07:15,649 --> 00:07:13,199
he was already a convict he was escaped

137
00:07:17,239 --> 00:07:15,659
from McAllister or I'm sorry granite

138
00:07:20,629 --> 00:07:17,249
prison as I was corrected the other

139
00:07:23,179 --> 00:07:20,639
night prison in Granite Oklahoma where

140
00:07:27,669 --> 00:07:23,189
he was serving a hundred and forty-four

141
00:07:32,019 --> 00:07:27,679
years for raping and kidnapping two

142
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:32,029
teenaged pregnant girls from Tulsa and

143
00:07:38,309 --> 00:07:36,490
he had taken them out in the woods some

144
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:38,319
same evidence matched the evidence that

145
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:40,090
the Girl Scout camp the same types of

146
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:42,250
knots were tied the same exact he used

147
00:07:47,610 --> 00:07:44,970
the same MO all the way around and

148
00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:47,620
actually tried to bury these girls but

149
00:07:51,150 --> 00:07:48,940
it was in the winter time and the ground

150
00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:51,160
was too hard for him to get very far he

151
00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:54,310
partially buried things yes left them

152
00:08:00,570 --> 00:07:56,560
tied in the woods and was going to come

153
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:00,580
back later and I don't doubt at all that

154
00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:03,370
he was going to come back and attack

155
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:06,750
them again and then kill them but

156
00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:09,130
somehow one of the managed to get free

157
00:08:15,689 --> 00:08:12,430
they escaped and he was actually brought

158
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:15,699
to trial and convicted of that crime so

159
00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:18,690
to me it wasn't that big of a stretch

160
00:08:26,249 --> 00:08:22,449
that he could be guilty of this crime

161
00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:26,259
which was very similar and of course a

162
00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:28,889
lot of times you know as we know a

163
00:08:35,579 --> 00:08:32,380
serial rapist will you know initially

164
00:08:38,550 --> 00:08:35,589
just start out with the physical attack

165
00:08:40,829 --> 00:08:38,560
at the violation in the rape but then if

166
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:40,839
they get convicted the next time they do

167
00:08:46,769 --> 00:08:44,410
it they don't leave witnesses so I think

168
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:46,779
you know and also killers crimes

169
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:48,610
escalate so I think that may have been

170
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:51,130
what was going on but but that was it

171
00:08:56,639 --> 00:08:53,850
but the what ensued were in the

172
00:09:01,470 --> 00:08:56,649
paranormal aspects of everything that

173
00:09:03,019 --> 00:09:01,480
went on was just amazing and I don't

174
00:09:05,940 --> 00:09:03,029
know how you want me to get into that

175
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:05,950
before you do I'm going to just take a

176
00:09:10,050 --> 00:09:08,110
take a break for a second from all of

177
00:09:12,660 --> 00:09:10,060
this information which is is very

178
00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:12,670
important for our listeners to know and

179
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:14,980
understand I'm going to move over to

180
00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:18,010
piqué and piqué I want to talk about

181
00:09:24,540 --> 00:09:20,560
what you found because what PK did is

182
00:09:28,319 --> 00:09:24,550
she took a look at this man's numerology

183
00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:28,329
and his birth date who was he so from

184
00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:30,910
that perspective PK tell us a little bit

185
00:09:33,870 --> 00:09:32,200
about what you found I thought I was

186
00:09:35,970 --> 00:09:33,880
fascinating I know Renee wants to hear

187
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:35,980
this oh my god taking notes right now

188
00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:39,010
got my bangs on paper I've taken notes

189
00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:41,470
for you - Renee all right this is

190
00:09:45,689 --> 00:09:44,020
interesting the the fact is this young

191
00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:45,699
man was born into have issues with

192
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:48,790
females so it started with his mother he

193
00:09:52,259 --> 00:09:50,170
couldn't get over that

194
00:09:54,420 --> 00:09:52,269
he had a destiny that was a 19-1 which

195
00:09:57,810 --> 00:09:54,430
means that he he felt abandoned and

196
00:10:01,710 --> 00:09:57,820
alone clear up to his early 20s so he

197
00:10:04,889 --> 00:10:01,720
felt unable to connect with anything he

198
00:10:08,519 --> 00:10:04,899
had very low self-esteem he was not a

199
00:10:11,129 --> 00:10:08,529
rule maker he found rules absolutely

200
00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:11,139
horrible to have to deal with yet any

201
00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:14,110
change he ever made was restricted he

202
00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:16,240
was extremely intelligent but very

203
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:19,690
fearful of the light and the dark this

204
00:10:24,420 --> 00:10:21,610
is a man that had the boogeyman carrying

205
00:10:26,069 --> 00:10:24,430
with him most of his life but I found it

206
00:10:31,439 --> 00:10:26,079
very interesting when I'm looking at all

207
00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:31,449
this is that he when he passed away it

208
00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:35,680
was a 27 nine day 29 ins things ending

209
00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:37,870
of old issues in a month that would have

210
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:39,790
dealt with a heart problem for him which

211
00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:42,880
is exactly what happened and the date

212
00:10:51,689 --> 00:10:45,519
that he was when this event took place

213
00:10:53,699 --> 00:10:51,699
in 1977 it was a twenty four six six is

214
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:53,709
all about family and universe and

215
00:11:00,569 --> 00:10:56,410
wanting things to be perfect and it was

216
00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:00,579
a nine achievement so the way of making

217
00:11:04,319 --> 00:11:02,380
it work and put together was very

218
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:04,329
difficult it was dealing with endings

219
00:11:12,269 --> 00:11:08,079
and unable to pull things together he

220
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,279
died in a universal eighth year we are

221
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:14,800
in a universal eighth year again today

222
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:18,130
is a universal and it's it's a universal

223
00:11:25,439 --> 00:11:23,410
eighth day so it's combination of things

224
00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:25,449
dealing with the female side the family

225
00:11:31,410 --> 00:11:28,360
side and the wanting of being perfect

226
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:31,420
and his feelings of inadequacy

227
00:11:37,769 --> 00:11:34,720
I would I would probably have to say

228
00:11:41,009 --> 00:11:37,779
that he tended to go from impotency to

229
00:11:46,079 --> 00:11:41,019
way off the other side that's why he

230
00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:46,089
this was so much a draw for him well a

231
00:11:51,629 --> 00:11:49,540
lot of that is oh I'm sorry also said

232
00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:51,639
something about he had no conscience

233
00:11:55,319 --> 00:11:53,529
well that has something else on the

234
00:11:58,620 --> 00:11:55,329
numbers well that's why I said look

235
00:12:01,139 --> 00:11:58,630
taking a look at it his he was extremely

236
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,149
intelligent but very fearful of what he

237
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:03,360
knew he did

238
00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:05,130
truly believed there was a boogeyman er

239
00:12:10,490 --> 00:12:07,769
uh somebody bigger than he that would

240
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:10,500
take away his powers he tried to be

241
00:12:16,430 --> 00:12:13,890
powerful but his low self-esteem created

242
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:16,440
such major issues for him then the into

243
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:19,250
the intimacy or lack thereof with women

244
00:12:26,569 --> 00:12:24,240
gave him that need to be more in charge

245
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:26,579
to control them and the only way he

246
00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:28,320
could control them was to take away

247
00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:32,940
their dignity by rape well that that is

248
00:12:37,819 --> 00:12:35,640
fairly consistent with what I know I

249
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:37,829
don't know everything about his personal

250
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:40,410
life but I do know that he had an

251
00:12:44,690 --> 00:12:43,110
absentee father so that right away you

252
00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:44,700
know brings in some abandonment issues

253
00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:47,910
definitely he lived with his mother who

254
00:12:52,660 --> 00:12:50,940
lived nearby camp Scott in fact you know

255
00:12:55,850 --> 00:12:52,670
that was one of the reasons that he

256
00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:55,860
initially became a suspect because his

257
00:12:59,630 --> 00:12:57,420
mother lives so nearby

258
00:13:03,470 --> 00:12:59,640
I don't know was relationship like was

259
00:13:06,829 --> 00:13:03,480
was like with her I know that he was

260
00:13:11,780 --> 00:13:06,839
estranged from his wife and that he had

261
00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:11,790
also molested his own child and I think

262
00:13:16,689 --> 00:13:14,670
attacked his own wife so I know that at

263
00:13:19,579 --> 00:13:16,699
least be you know due to the molestation

264
00:13:22,699 --> 00:13:19,589
that they split up and it might have

265
00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:22,709
also been a tax on her as well but it

266
00:13:28,990 --> 00:13:25,380
seems like also just generally that when

267
00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:29,000
you find guys that are child molesters

268
00:13:36,290 --> 00:13:31,769
mm-hmm doesn't that sort of suggest an

269
00:13:38,540 --> 00:13:36,300
inadequacy with normal women or fear of

270
00:13:41,439 --> 00:13:38,550
rejection they want someone that they

271
00:13:44,329 --> 00:13:41,449
can overpower and feel bigger than and

272
00:13:46,819 --> 00:13:44,339
definitely and in his case because he

273
00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:46,829
was very much a rule breaker and felt

274
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:49,350
such low self-esteem for himself it's

275
00:13:54,860 --> 00:13:51,930
enforced when the out numbers are always

276
00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:54,870
karmic they have a karmic impact and as

277
00:13:58,519 --> 00:13:57,000
I said earlier it was an eight universal

278
00:14:01,840 --> 00:13:58,529
year and when we're going through all

279
00:14:05,389 --> 00:14:01,850
this and the girls were in 10th eighth

280
00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:05,399
well yes that's right they should yeah

281
00:14:09,319 --> 00:14:07,470
so everything to do with the 8th the

282
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:09,329
year that it was in what was going on

283
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:14,310
within him very much a pervert that I

284
00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:16,690
mean that's the nicest way I can put it

285
00:14:20,910 --> 00:14:18,430
because and also Patricia it's so

286
00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:20,920
interesting that here we are again with

287
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:22,900
an 8 and we are talking about this case

288
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:26,050
exactly example is kind of coming to

289
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,110
another full circle here it has done a

290
00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:31,120
great job looking at this guy can

291
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:33,280
certainly see from Renee what you shared

292
00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:35,920
and piqué what you shared this looks

293
00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:37,990
like the man who did it even though he

294
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:40,420
was not he was found not guilty which is

295
00:14:46,050 --> 00:14:43,120
unbelievable to so many but you know I

296
00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:46,060
have to share with you all I had a phone

297
00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:49,150
call today from a dear friend of mine I

298
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:50,680
hadn't heard from her in a long time

299
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:54,370
name is Kelly and Kelly said I had to

300
00:15:00,420 --> 00:14:57,370
call you because I saw your post about

301
00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:00,430
the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders she said

302
00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:04,750
I was a Girl Scout then and I remember

303
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:08,500
that case and I was scared to death I

304
00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:10,990
didn't want to go to camp my mother made

305
00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:15,280
me go but she said this case this these

306
00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:18,550
murders just shook me to my core she

307
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:21,550
said when I saw the post I thought the

308
00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:23,680
same way I did back then you know

309
00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:26,380
there's something about this case and

310
00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:29,620
this experience that intuitive sensitive

311
00:15:35,450 --> 00:15:32,200
people know there is so much more to

312
00:15:38,580 --> 00:15:35,460
this from the dark side of magic from

313
00:15:40,110 --> 00:15:38,590
these demonic beings that he called

314
00:15:42,330 --> 00:15:40,120
fourths which we're going to get into

315
00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:42,340
that with Michael Bastien and with

316
00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:45,300
george lugo tonight this is what

317
00:15:50,580 --> 00:15:48,640
continues to scare people to this day

318
00:15:52,110 --> 00:15:50,590
there's a very powerful phone call from

319
00:15:54,270 --> 00:15:52,120
Kelly and I really appreciate that she

320
00:15:58,260 --> 00:15:54,280
called I know she's not alone in her

321
00:16:00,840 --> 00:15:58,270
feelings about this case you know when

322
00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:00,850
we take a little how intelligent the

323
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:03,760
young man was but what is intelligence

324
00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:06,130
it's a border line between reality and

325
00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:10,540
insanity hmm yeah he was 10 - a very

326
00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:13,630
well well read and listen to classical

327
00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:16,390
music and and that sort of thing so yeah

328
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:20,620
you're right about that and that he was

329
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:22,810
able to somehow convince a medicine man

330
00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:25,839
to train him and work with him so that

331
00:16:29,610 --> 00:16:28,600
somewhere a medicine man must have felt

332
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:29,620
he had

333
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:33,130
ability which is unfortunate because it

334
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:34,690
brought him to a whole new level of

335
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:35,620
power

336
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:38,050
well the medicine man believed him you

337
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:39,730
know believed that he was being

338
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:43,810
railroaded in both cases so he he helped

339
00:16:50,490 --> 00:16:46,890
him but unfortunately I think Shinar

340
00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:50,500
misused those powers but you know we'll

341
00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:53,200
get into what happened later on but you

342
00:16:57,630 --> 00:16:55,320
can't use yeah just use the powers

343
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,640
exactly exactly

344
00:17:02,790 --> 00:16:59,920
odd thing well and I also want to just

345
00:17:05,309 --> 00:17:02,800
you know at least honor these girls

346
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:05,319
memories it was other names Laurie Lee

347
00:17:08,939 --> 00:17:06,880
farmer who was 8

348
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:08,949
Michelle Goose am I saying that

349
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:10,329
correctly yay

350
00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:14,260
moons 9 and Doris Denis Mitchell who was

351
00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:17,470
10 that's a Christmas actually her last

352
00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:20,380
name was Milner I saw that same typo on

353
00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:22,300
some website but her name was Denise

354
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:24,670
Milner Miller estores Denise Mellie

355
00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:25,209
thank you

356
00:17:28,770 --> 00:17:27,400
Milner and then you know you know her

357
00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:28,780
little sister was the one that had a

358
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:30,280
premonition about all this

359
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:32,950
yeah let's now talk about that Renee

360
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:35,530
because you know all of the paranormal

361
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:37,450
things that happened so do you want to

362
00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:39,370
share that with us what happened during

363
00:17:45,419 --> 00:17:41,260
this case it's so many twists and turns

364
00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:45,429
to this thing well I mean to me it NPK

365
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:48,670
you may have something to say about this

366
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,490
about the sort of numerology of it I

367
00:17:55,980 --> 00:17:54,400
don't know but it just seems so odd you

368
00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:55,990
know they all arrived at Camp when

369
00:18:01,919 --> 00:17:57,460
blesses most of them were from

370
00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:01,929
metropolitan Tulsa area and once they

371
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:05,320
got there they aide and they were

372
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:07,450
getting ready to you know get to their

373
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:10,390
their tents the the camp was set up with

374
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:14,770
these wooden floors that were there all

375
00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:17,200
year long and they were quite up off the

376
00:18:20,730 --> 00:18:19,540
ground and then the tents were on top of

377
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:20,740
the floor so they were on like little

378
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:23,710
foundations the girls were allowed to

379
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:26,950
pick their own tent mates and of course

380
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:28,720
most of the girls chose their

381
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:31,090
girlfriends that they had come with and

382
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:34,030
hadn't made plans to come with and so

383
00:18:38,550 --> 00:18:35,530
they all chose up and there were four

384
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,560
girls to each tent and once the choosing

385
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:40,720
was all done there were three little

386
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:43,090
girls that were left over

387
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:47,850
and that was a Denise Lori and Michelle

388
00:18:54,030 --> 00:18:50,470
they didn't know each other at all

389
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:54,040
and Denise had really not wanted to go

390
00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:55,810
and she begged her mother all please

391
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,070
please you know I don't want to go I

392
00:19:02,040 --> 00:18:58,960
don't want to go and her mom says we'll

393
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:02,050
listen just go I think you'll have a

394
00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:03,850
good time once you're there and once you

395
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:05,590
get there if you still don't want to be

396
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:07,780
there call me and I'll come and pick you

397
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:09,730
up I think it's only about an hour drive

398
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:13,330
from Tulsa and so she asked the

399
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:14,650
counselor she said all I want to call my

400
00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:17,410
mom and the counselor said I tell you

401
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:21,190
what let's have dinner go to our cabins

402
00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:23,440
write letters to our parents and if you

403
00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:25,860
still want to call her in the morning

404
00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:28,060
you know I'll let you call her we'll of

405
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:28,780
course

406
00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:31,770
Denise nor the other two girls made it

407
00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:36,190
alive to the next morning but it was

408
00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:37,990
interesting Denise familiares month

409
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,440
Milner's mother tells a story about

410
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:42,720
Denise's little five-year-old sister

411
00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:47,110
Kathy who that very evening came up to

412
00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:49,420
her mom and said mom why do people die

413
00:19:55,650 --> 00:19:53,590
and the mother said well you know that's

414
00:19:58,500 --> 00:19:55,660
the cycle of life you know people are

415
00:20:00,780 --> 00:19:58,510
dying all the time but babies are being

416
00:20:03,630 --> 00:20:00,790
born all the time that's the way you

417
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:03,640
know that it works and the little girl

418
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:05,530
said well tonight everybody's going to

419
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:09,130
die and I thought that it was quite

420
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:12,490
strange yeah very much so that was kind

421
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:14,290
of a shadow of things to come in terms

422
00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:17,110
of these uh these energies were already

423
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:19,420
bleeding through and here this little

424
00:20:24,090 --> 00:20:21,970
five year old girl was picking up on the

425
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:24,100
tragedy about to befall their family I

426
00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:26,620
mean it is is a good example of how

427
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:29,230
powerful these energies were and how

428
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:30,310
they were already in place

429
00:20:37,650 --> 00:20:34,840
even before the event yeah absolutely

430
00:20:40,590 --> 00:20:37,660
but it was you know there was the all

431
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:40,600
the it was being reported in the

432
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:42,610
newspapers you know the activities of

433
00:20:47,610 --> 00:20:45,730
the medicine men the idea that J that

434
00:20:51,660 --> 00:20:47,620
gene Hart was a shapeshifter

435
00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:51,670
and that's how he was able to evade the

436
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:54,100
agents for so long it you know I think

437
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:55,690
the manhunt was something like three

438
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:56,410
years

439
00:21:01,800 --> 00:20:58,320
was the big you know because manhunt in

440
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:01,810
Oklahoma history and they had you know

441
00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:04,570
helicopters and several different law

442
00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:09,340
enforcement agencies volunteers these

443
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:11,980
amazing distracting going to stomp

444
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:14,950
dances being seen in public everywhere

445
00:21:19,380 --> 00:21:17,770
yeah yet the investigators would get

446
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,390
there and he would disappear into thin

447
00:21:23,850 --> 00:21:21,760
air they couldn't find him yeah

448
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:23,860
absolutely well you know that was he

449
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:26,890
would go right into town you know they

450
00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:28,330
would he'd be seen on the streets of

451
00:21:34,020 --> 00:21:31,060
Locust Grove but no one would say

452
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:34,030
anything it was it was really wild how

453
00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:35,740
he was able just to move about freely

454
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:38,380
and then he was moving about a lot at

455
00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:40,090
night and they thought you know that he

456
00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:41,980
was burglarizing places which I believe

457
00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:44,590
they subsequently proved that he was in

458
00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:48,460
fact he had been to the camp a couple of

459
00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:50,590
days before and they found a rip in one

460
00:21:57,930 --> 00:21:55,540
of the tents when they arrived so it was

461
00:21:59,910 --> 00:21:57,940
like he was getting ready to you know

462
00:22:04,350 --> 00:21:59,920
break in there he knew the Girl Scouts

463
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:04,360
were going to arrive and so he was

464
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:06,340
already making a way to get inside one

465
00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:09,460
of the tents but they found it on

466
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:12,040
arrival and they they fixed it somebody

467
00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:15,910
stitched it up before that night so it

468
00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:18,190
became tent number 8 there was a couple

469
00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:19,720
of tents that got broken into that night

470
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:21,340
things stolen a pair of glasses

471
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:23,910
different things

472
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:26,950
the pair of women's glasses which of

473
00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:29,170
course he was subsequently seen to have

474
00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:31,780
on his face when he was arrested he was

475
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:33,340
wearing that pair of women's glasses

476
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:36,130
that he stole that night my goodness how

477
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:39,190
bold now you talked you talked on your

478
00:22:44,790 --> 00:22:42,130
show a little bit about Harvey Pratt and

479
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:44,800
how he turned this case around by

480
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:47,050
smoking himself at the water's edge and

481
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:48,970
when you say smoking himself what we

482
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:51,610
know to be smudging right but he calls

483
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:53,770
smoking himself and so can you tell us

484
00:22:57,540 --> 00:22:54,910
what happened because they were really

485
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:57,550
having a hard time get anywhere on this

486
00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:00,640
case until Harvey did this they they had

487
00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:03,160
found a cave nearby that had a lot of

488
00:23:09,690 --> 00:23:06,760
evidence they were able to tie the cave

489
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:09,700
to the crime scene so they knew that

490
00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:12,490
had been in that cave was the murderer

491
00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:15,460
or was involved in the murder and so

492
00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:17,350
they were trying to figure out who it

493
00:23:22,259 --> 00:23:19,960
was and they couldn't figure out who it

494
00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:22,269
was that had been staying in that cave

495
00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:26,860
well they had set up a camp you know out

496
00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:30,580
in the out in the woods a mobile mobile

497
00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:33,580
headquarters for the OSBI and they were

498
00:23:37,049 --> 00:23:35,289
all down there one evening and they were

499
00:23:39,779 --> 00:23:37,059
working and talking and they looked up

500
00:23:42,180 --> 00:23:39,789
and they noticed that Harvey was gone

501
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:42,190
and they saw him down by though down by

502
00:23:48,810 --> 00:23:45,130
the water so a couple of them walked

503
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:48,820
down there and Harvey was burning cedar

504
00:23:55,649 --> 00:23:52,210
branches which is you know what a lot of

505
00:23:58,860 --> 00:23:55,659
the native tribes burned in Oklahoma

506
00:24:01,649 --> 00:23:58,870
area I know a lot of people do sage but

507
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:01,659
cedar is very very common and very very

508
00:24:07,139 --> 00:24:05,200
revered in that area and in fact my mom

509
00:24:11,610 --> 00:24:07,149
still you know sends me a bundle of

510
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:11,620
cedar branches sometimes in the mail but

511
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:15,010
but anyhow he was down there and he was

512
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:16,809
you know putting the smoke on himself

513
00:24:20,399 --> 00:24:18,970
and they came down and said you know

514
00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:20,409
what are you doing and he says well I

515
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:22,059
will tell you but you better not laugh

516
00:24:28,409 --> 00:24:24,460
you know god this is very serious to me

517
00:24:30,539 --> 00:24:28,419
and they said no we won't laugh and he

518
00:24:33,450 --> 00:24:30,549
says well I'm pure off' eyeing myself

519
00:24:36,149 --> 00:24:33,460
I'm cleansing myself so that I will be

520
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:36,159
worthy to you know go on this hunt so

521
00:24:40,529 --> 00:24:39,130
that I'll do the right thing and helping

522
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:40,539
these families that have lost these

523
00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:43,330
little girls and he said do you want me

524
00:24:49,139 --> 00:24:45,940
to smoke you as well and they said yes

525
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:49,149
so he smoked the other two agents and

526
00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:51,010
then he says now we're going to send

527
00:24:55,019 --> 00:24:52,990
this smoke out and it's going to it's

528
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:55,029
going to go out and it's going to fall

529
00:24:59,220 --> 00:24:57,490
on someone who's going to be able to

530
00:25:03,990 --> 00:24:59,230
help us who's going to be able to help

531
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:04,000
us identify who this monster is it

532
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:06,970
wasn't but just a few minutes and the

533
00:25:12,139 --> 00:25:09,039
phone rang back at the mobile campsite

534
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:12,149
they ran up and answered it and it was a

535
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:16,000
photographer who had identified a

536
00:25:20,669 --> 00:25:18,159
picture that was published in the Tulsa

537
00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:20,679
paper a picture that they had found in

538
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:24,100
the cave and it looked like a wedding

539
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:26,890
and so they finally published it in the

540
00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:28,240
paper and said does anybody know who

541
00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:29,230
these people are

542
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:30,700
the photographer calls and says well I

543
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:32,410
know who that is that's a wedding I took

544
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:34,690
the pictures as it turns out that

545
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,910
photographer was also teaching a

546
00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:39,520
photography class at Granite prison and

547
00:25:46,410 --> 00:25:42,670
Jean Hart was the one who had developed

548
00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:46,420
that roll of film and they believed that

549
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:49,780
Jean Hart stole that picture because the

550
00:25:55,860 --> 00:25:52,210
woman in it looked just like his

551
00:25:59,250 --> 00:25:55,870
estranged wife oh my gosh and it's just

552
00:26:02,660 --> 00:25:59,260
an incredible heartfelt experience that

553
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:02,670
Harvey Pratt took on by doing the smoke

554
00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:06,130
inviting his fellow investigators they

555
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:08,440
agreed to come in with him and then from

556
00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:10,900
with all their heart that smoke went out

557
00:26:15,630 --> 00:26:13,420
and they were able to turn the case

558
00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:15,640
around because from everything you've

559
00:26:19,890 --> 00:26:17,560
told me Renee and from what I've seen in

560
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:19,900
the documentary and from the book this

561
00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:21,940
case was going nowhere fast and these

562
00:26:27,690 --> 00:26:24,550
investigators were scared too this was a

563
00:26:30,540 --> 00:26:27,700
frightening experience to have this guy

564
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:30,550
be so elusive to have so many people in

565
00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:33,310
the community beyond his side and to

566
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:35,670
know that there was strong medicine

567
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:39,790
behind him that is a scary thing for all

568
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:41,530
of those investigators and all the

569
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:43,930
people and the families involved in this

570
00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:47,170
case but thank goodness that that Harvey

571
00:26:53,670 --> 00:26:49,990
saw a way through this to use good

572
00:26:55,650 --> 00:26:53,680
medicine to really send that out so he'd

573
00:26:57,780 --> 00:26:55,660
really did a the right thing and that

574
00:27:01,770 --> 00:26:57,790
was there's other things to talk about

575
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:01,780
those dogs we had high fancy tracking

576
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:07,360
dogs and yeah absolutely they had

577
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:09,090
brought in some tracking dogs some

578
00:27:13,530 --> 00:27:11,950
world-famous you know tracking dogs from

579
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:13,540
Pennsylvania that was supposed to be

580
00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:16,330
highly trained and all this and they

581
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:19,180
brought them out and I mean almost

582
00:27:23,340 --> 00:27:21,970
instant there was almost instantly one

583
00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:23,350
of them just broke loose and ran right

584
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:24,790
out in the middle of the highway one was

585
00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:25,870
hit by a truck and killed

586
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:28,540
I guess crisi and the second one died

587
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:30,760
like a couple days later of heating heat

588
00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:32,500
exhaustion

589
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:37,030
and but I understand that you know

590
00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:39,220
there's a story that was told in the

591
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:41,260
book and I don't know if the agents

592
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:43,210
witnesses or not but someone said that

593
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:44,890
there was a medicine man there when they

594
00:27:49,530 --> 00:27:47,050
brought the dogs out and that he was

595
00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:49,540
just standing off and he was staring you

596
00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:53,260
know at the dogs so they I don't know

597
00:27:57,060 --> 00:27:55,180
who that medicine man was but if it was

598
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:57,070
him staring at the dogs and he was

599
00:28:00,690 --> 00:27:58,720
trying to do something with them then

600
00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:00,700
obviously it was someone that was

601
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:04,420
working on the suspects behalf and but

602
00:28:09,030 --> 00:28:06,370
it was when it was only when they went

603
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:09,040
to visit their own medicine man that he

604
00:28:13,890 --> 00:28:11,650
told them you know they said we're

605
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:13,900
seeking someone who murdered these girls

606
00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:17,140
and you know and he you know looked into

607
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:18,550
it you know metaphysically or

608
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:21,130
psychically and he said you know the man

609
00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:24,070
you're seeking has the help of a

610
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:27,640
powerful medicine man and the these guys

611
00:28:31,470 --> 00:28:29,350
said well wait a minute I thought you

612
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:31,480
couldn't misuse the medicine man's power

613
00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:34,480
for evil purposes he said you can and

614
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:36,550
Michael will be able to tell us more

615
00:28:41,850 --> 00:28:38,340
about this I'm sure I'm really hoping

616
00:28:43,470 --> 00:28:41,860
you can use the medicine man's power for

617
00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:43,480
evil purposes if the medicine man

618
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:45,040
believes you and believes that he's

619
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:45,970
doing good

620
00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:48,640
but if you misuse the medicine man's

621
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:51,580
power look out it's going to get you

622
00:28:56,370 --> 00:28:54,790
that's right exactly right oh my

623
00:28:59,220 --> 00:28:56,380
goodness so we've got so much more to

624
00:29:01,470 --> 00:28:59,230
share and if you have a question you

625
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:01,480
want to talk to us tonight please call

626
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:05,110
in at 888 nine one nine two three five

627
00:29:10,860 --> 00:29:07,630
five again that's eight eight eight nine

628
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:10,870
one nine two three five five or you can

629
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:14,200
join us in the chat room we are having a

630
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:16,720
very special show this evening we are

631
00:29:20,790 --> 00:29:18,730
talking with Renee Barnett will be

632
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:20,800
talking with Michael Bastien and george

633
00:29:27,180 --> 00:29:23,560
lugo and of course my very wonderful

634
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:27,190
host PK about the Oklahoma Girl Scout

635
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:29,530
murders and all of the paranormal

636
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:33,160
stories effects and events that went

637
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:35,410
around this case hey guys if you don't

638
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:37,090
know that the light and the dark are at

639
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:40,210
war and this is for real this case will

640
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:44,410
convince you that it really is so stay

641
00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:45,510
tuned every

642
00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:48,030
you are listening to Supernatural girls

643
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,620
radio and we will be right back welcome

644
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:54,799
back everyone you are listening to

645
00:30:00,799 --> 00:29:58,380
Supernatural girls on radio I am your

646
00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:00,809
host Patricia Baker and I'm here with my

647
00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:04,049
co-host PK and very very special guests

648
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:07,620
Renae Barnett Michael Bastien and george

649
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:11,490
lugo we are talking about the Oklahoma

650
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:14,910
Girl Scout murders from the side of the

651
00:30:18,890 --> 00:30:16,890
paranormal we are talking about the

652
00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:18,900
paranormal events that surrounded this

653
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:22,140
case and made it so very puzzling to all

654
00:30:28,430 --> 00:30:26,070
of us this is a case of evil versus good

655
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:28,440
and that's the way we're talking about

656
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:31,290
this tonight this is not about religion

657
00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:34,320
this is not about ethnicity this isn't

658
00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:36,120
about color it's about none of those

659
00:30:41,450 --> 00:30:38,790
things it's about the light versus the

660
00:30:43,159 --> 00:30:41,460
darkness and if you didn't believe that

661
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:43,169
the light and the dark have their

662
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:45,510
battles then you will after tonight's

663
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:49,110
show so Renee let's go back to what you

664
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:51,210
were sharing let's see we can wrap up

665
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,330
this part of the paranormal experiences

666
00:30:59,659 --> 00:30:57,360
there there was a time when a big cat

667
00:31:05,299 --> 00:30:59,669
jumped into Harvey's lab what was that

668
00:31:09,530 --> 00:31:05,309
about well Harvey who is to this day an

669
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:09,540
OSBI agent is also Cheyenne Arapaho

670
00:31:15,710 --> 00:31:13,140
Sioux Indian and he is as you mentioned

671
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:15,720
earlier he was brought up in the old

672
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:19,970
ways and practiced those and they had

673
00:31:24,409 --> 00:31:22,530
you know tried everything they went to

674
00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:24,419
see their medicine man and were given

675
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:28,400
medicine to wear around their necks and

676
00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:30,960
there was medicine to make them

677
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:34,020
invisible the medicine man said walk for

678
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:37,110
a part and if you can get in between you

679
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:39,450
he won't be able to see you

680
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:41,130
he gave the medicine to put on their

681
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:43,740
bullets so that they would only go to

682
00:31:48,289 --> 00:31:46,049
the guilty person and he gave them

683
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:48,299
medicine to put on the trail so that if

684
00:31:52,850 --> 00:31:50,970
they pick up his track they won't loose

685
00:31:55,970 --> 00:31:52,860
it if they put the medicine down at the

686
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,980
start of where they they found it and so

687
00:31:59,770 --> 00:31:57,840
they decided to go out and Harvey and

688
00:32:01,970 --> 00:31:59,780
his brother Tony who was

689
00:32:04,669 --> 00:32:01,980
another police officer from another

690
00:32:06,980 --> 00:32:04,679
agency who just decided to go and help

691
00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:06,990
her be out they decided just to go camp

692
00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:09,990
out at night in the woods and as Harvey

693
00:32:14,930 --> 00:32:12,300
said to me just you know two Indians out

694
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:14,940
in the woods you know hunting or doing

695
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:17,730
whatever and so they were out in the

696
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:19,830
middle of nowhere and I mean those woods

697
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:24,690
can be remote in Oklahoma and they were

698
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:26,970
sitting there by the fire they had made

699
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:29,450
a fire and Harvey said it wasn't even a

700
00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:32,220
cold night they didn't have it for the

701
00:32:36,919 --> 00:32:34,020
warmth I just had it more just for the

702
00:32:38,419 --> 00:32:36,929
comfort of sitting by the fire it made

703
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:38,429
them feel more comfortable because it

704
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:40,410
was sure it was quite spooky out there

705
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:43,050
yeah and they were sitting there and

706
00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:45,690
they were taking turns and staying awake

707
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:48,360
being on watch and I guess it was

708
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:51,120
Harvey's turn and I think he just nodded

709
00:32:58,100 --> 00:32:55,410
off and suddenly this cat jumps out of

710
00:33:01,160 --> 00:32:58,110
the darkness from nowhere right into his

711
00:33:03,230 --> 00:33:01,170
lap and then it jumps off it he's

712
00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:03,240
flinging it off and it's screeching and

713
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:06,870
he's throwing it off you know and at the

714
00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:08,850
same time and of course it led them to

715
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:10,860
think well wait a minute you know they

716
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:13,110
say gene heart's a shape-shifter you

717
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:15,210
know could that have been gene heart or

718
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:17,700
someone else that was you know working

719
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:20,490
on his behalf or some other dark force

720
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:24,840
you know turning into an animal so that

721
00:33:30,020 --> 00:33:26,970
was pretty scary

722
00:33:32,150 --> 00:33:30,030
there was let me ask you about this too

723
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:32,160
because again we have all these dark

724
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:34,770
forces in play and certainly they spook

725
00:33:38,990 --> 00:33:36,960
the investigators they were scared I

726
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:39,000
even heard him on your show they still

727
00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:40,530
sounded scared as they were talking

728
00:33:45,650 --> 00:33:43,080
about all of this so we have these dark

729
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,660
forces working to obfuscate everything

730
00:33:51,260 --> 00:33:48,120
to make people think that he's innocent

731
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:51,270
when he's truly guilty to make sure that

732
00:33:55,970 --> 00:33:54,120
he can come and go as he pleases even

733
00:33:57,890 --> 00:33:55,980
though he's an escapee and he's already

734
00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:57,900
been convicted of this other these other

735
00:34:03,380 --> 00:34:00,120
crimes he's walking around free as a

736
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:03,390
bird and the dogs died and this

737
00:34:07,549 --> 00:34:05,130
supposedly there was a Native American

738
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:07,559
medicine man who may have had a hand in

739
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:11,490
that is terrible and then we have a

740
00:34:16,030 --> 00:34:13,010
Native American medicine

741
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:16,040
and who is helping the investigators now

742
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:18,770
he did a rare ritual tell us about that

743
00:34:24,490 --> 00:34:22,730
oh well that was really interesting well

744
00:34:27,580 --> 00:34:24,500
according to this medicine man whose

745
00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:27,590
real name I to this day do not know I

746
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:30,260
tried to wrench it out of Harvey but of

747
00:34:39,490 --> 00:34:34,850
course he he rightly did not divulge the

748
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:39,500
name but anyway uh he's in the

749
00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:42,710
documentary that one of the agents made

750
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:45,950
after after the trial I just should

751
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:48,320
quickly mention that when Jean Hart was

752
00:34:56,770 --> 00:34:52,810
acquitted the agency the OSBI was so

753
00:34:59,500 --> 00:34:56,780
downtrodden and so disheartened by this

754
00:35:01,750 --> 00:34:59,510
case because they had all this evidence

755
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:01,760
they were all and to this day are

756
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:04,480
absolutely sure they had the right guy

757
00:35:08,770 --> 00:35:07,040
but he was acquitted anyway I think

758
00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:08,780
there was something like and I might be

759
00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:10,280
wrong about these numbers but it's close

760
00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:12,580
to this there was something like 36

761
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:15,080
agents on the bureau at the time and I

762
00:35:21,010 --> 00:35:18,080
believe thirty of them quit as a result

763
00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:21,020
of that trial as well as the district

764
00:35:28,510 --> 00:35:24,520
attorney who was the biggest legendary

765
00:35:30,940 --> 00:35:28,520
prosecutor in Oklahoma history that was

766
00:35:35,050 --> 00:35:30,950
the very last case he ever tried and

767
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:35,060
it's the only one he ever lost it was a

768
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,610
big it was a really big deal yes nothing

769
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:39,920
so horrible that this guy was acquitted

770
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:41,240
I mean I can see why they would turn

771
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:42,800
their badges in what's the point of all

772
00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:45,400
this yeah that's the way I walk away

773
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:47,900
most of them left law enforcement all

774
00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:50,450
together Harvey was the one that stayed

775
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:53,420
and you know continues to to work to try

776
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:55,040
to help the people of Oklahoma with

777
00:36:01,630 --> 00:35:58,490
their crime problems but the other guys

778
00:36:04,660 --> 00:36:01,640
went on to do other businesses one of

779
00:36:06,850 --> 00:36:04,670
the authors of the book went on to

780
00:36:10,510 --> 00:36:06,860
become an Oklahoma State Senator for

781
00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:10,520
many years so these guys were you know

782
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:13,190
sharp guys in any way when they went to

783
00:36:18,430 --> 00:36:16,010
see their own medicine man he explained

784
00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:18,440
to them that there was a ceremony that

785
00:36:23,350 --> 00:36:20,870
he said and I'm hoping that Michael

786
00:36:25,660 --> 00:36:23,360
Bastien will be able to tell me about

787
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:25,670
this if he knows about this particular

788
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:26,810
thing but

789
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:30,320
they said there's this old tobacco grown

790
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:33,890
in a primeval forest and there's just

791
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:37,280
very tiny bits of it left they call it

792
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:41,870
the ancient one and according to this

793
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:44,810
this elder he said that a medicine man

794
00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:47,570
can live his whole life and go through

795
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:49,880
all these ceremonies and never ever use

796
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:52,310
the ancient one because it's so rare and

797
00:36:58,060 --> 00:36:54,770
it's so important so it's only used in

798
00:36:59,680 --> 00:36:58,070
very very dire circumstances and this

799
00:37:04,300 --> 00:36:59,690
Mazda man felt that this case was

800
00:37:07,060 --> 00:37:04,310
important enough to use this ceremony I

801
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:07,070
don't know what it's comprised of he

802
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:09,530
would only share that it involved moving

803
00:37:17,230 --> 00:37:14,140
water and in the end the ancient tobacco

804
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,240
so he performed the ceremony and he said

805
00:37:22,060 --> 00:37:19,760
basically the ceremony says the ancient

806
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:22,070
one says that whoever killed these

807
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:25,490
little girls be it gene heart or someone

808
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:28,310
else stands on the blood of these

809
00:37:34,810 --> 00:37:32,210
children and they will die and that's

810
00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:34,820
what the ceremony was of the ancient one

811
00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:38,540
Wow and then he after he was acquitted

812
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:42,140
he was jogging around the prison yard we

813
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:44,000
had to go back to present because he was

814
00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:46,370
he still had to go back and serve 144

815
00:37:53,290 --> 00:37:49,220
years for the rape and kidnapping of the

816
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:53,300
two tulsa girls and yeah it was a month

817
00:37:59,800 --> 00:37:55,550
later he was jogging around the prison

818
00:38:02,560 --> 00:37:59,810
yard and he simply dropped dead at 26 of

819
00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:02,570
a heart attack so I would say the

820
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:07,700
ancient one worked yep is it I brought

821
00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:10,070
in scuse me I just wanna say isn't it

822
00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:13,070
ironic that the 26 is also an 8 yes

823
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:17,030
today it's his age yes yes that's right

824
00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:20,030
oh my goodness yeah but yes it might

825
00:38:25,870 --> 00:38:22,220
have been the ancient one or it might

826
00:38:27,490 --> 00:38:25,880
have been the misuse of the power of his

827
00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:27,500
own medicine man or it could have been

828
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:30,140
those things together he just it was too

829
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:32,240
much and you know it the power went back

830
00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:33,110
on him

831
00:38:37,630 --> 00:38:35,060
basically the medicine man's power if

832
00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:37,640
you misuse it Harvey said that it will

833
00:38:42,490 --> 00:38:40,190
come back on you well that makes sense

834
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:42,500
and that's a perfect introduction here

835
00:38:47,319 --> 00:38:45,170
for our next guest who is Michael

836
00:38:49,390 --> 00:38:47,329
Bastien Michael is an algonquian

837
00:38:52,569 --> 00:38:49,400
medicine man and as I mentioned

838
00:38:54,579 --> 00:38:52,579
previously he was an apprentice to the

839
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:54,589
Tuscarora medicine man matt baer

840
00:38:59,740 --> 00:38:57,200
Anderson so Michael welcome to the show

841
00:39:03,250 --> 00:38:59,750
Thank You Patricia it's an honor to be

842
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:03,260
here and it's very interesting and very

843
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:06,880
accurate about the things that are being

844
00:39:13,359 --> 00:39:11,569
depicted from that time period and the

845
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:13,369
things that are being brought together

846
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:16,640
and see how we can merge all of these

847
00:39:21,550 --> 00:39:19,310
things and I thank you for the

848
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:21,560
compliment of calling me a medicine man

849
00:39:28,569 --> 00:39:25,490
but I'm nowheres near the age where you

850
00:39:31,270 --> 00:39:28,579
can accept a title like that and even

851
00:39:33,490 --> 00:39:31,280
I'm not sure if I will ever reach that

852
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:33,500
point where I can accept that title but

853
00:39:40,930 --> 00:39:36,890
I'm certainly working on trying to find

854
00:39:44,380 --> 00:39:40,940
out and work with these elements and as

855
00:39:48,849 --> 00:39:44,390
I have spoken to you off air that things

856
00:39:50,859 --> 00:39:48,859
keep being revealed to me as I go

857
00:39:54,430 --> 00:39:50,869
through time and that tells me that I'm

858
00:39:57,460 --> 00:39:54,440
staying on the correct path and using

859
00:40:01,990 --> 00:39:57,470
these teachings in the highest way for

860
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:02,000
the the best of all life and that's why

861
00:40:05,950 --> 00:40:03,650
we want to do on the show Michael

862
00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:05,960
because we know your integrity I mean

863
00:40:10,990 --> 00:40:07,849
you're just one of the most Integrity's

864
00:40:14,859 --> 00:40:11,000
people we know and you do walk the path

865
00:40:18,430 --> 00:40:14,869
of light and again hearing this whole

866
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:18,440
experience obviously there was a big

867
00:40:23,740 --> 00:40:22,310
abuse of Native American medicine and I

868
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:23,750
know even when we've talked previously

869
00:40:30,609 --> 00:40:26,930
you talked how about how people had come

870
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:30,619
after matt baer with bad bad medicine

871
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:33,920
and witchcraft and he had his ways of

872
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:37,160
dealing with that but this case is has

873
00:40:42,190 --> 00:40:39,170
so many twists and turns as I mentioned

874
00:40:44,109 --> 00:40:42,200
and so so much heartache to it what do

875
00:40:46,990 --> 00:40:44,119
you what do you feel about this what is

876
00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:47,000
your thought on on this case and what

877
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:50,839
happened well I think this is one of the

878
00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:53,810
best examples to teach from

879
00:40:59,860 --> 00:40:56,870
and for people to understand that if you

880
00:41:02,920 --> 00:40:59,870
become a practitioner and you claim

881
00:41:05,620 --> 00:41:02,930
you're doing the work of the creator but

882
00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:05,630
the things that you seem to get involved

883
00:41:13,660 --> 00:41:08,780
with don't prove out or say exactly

884
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:13,670
those words then there is no immunity to

885
00:41:21,340 --> 00:41:16,930
the people who are participating in

886
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:21,350
using or misusing the sacred elements

887
00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:24,410
that have been handed down and taught so

888
00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:27,260
this is why it is really crucial and I

889
00:41:33,490 --> 00:41:29,990
think so far I have done an excellent

890
00:41:37,330 --> 00:41:33,500
job of presenting the evidence and

891
00:41:41,830 --> 00:41:37,340
showing the interaction and how someone

892
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:41,840
can use these elements to evade or to in

893
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:44,450
one sense there are things that can be

894
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:48,770
done to muddy up or cloud that situation

895
00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:51,770
so it makes it more difficult to try to

896
00:41:59,590 --> 00:41:55,600
get through to find who is at the source

897
00:42:02,800 --> 00:41:59,600
you may not find the exact teacher who

898
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:02,810
was giving this information to someone

899
00:42:09,130 --> 00:42:06,260
who they hadn't screamed enough and

900
00:42:12,670 --> 00:42:09,140
that's why I said I took almost three

901
00:42:17,290 --> 00:42:12,680
years of me almost living with matt baer

902
00:42:20,650 --> 00:42:17,300
before you gain that not only trust it's

903
00:42:24,490 --> 00:42:20,660
more than trust it's it's demonstrating

904
00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:24,500
that you will not deviate you won't

905
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:27,200
allow emotion you won't allow other

906
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:32,330
human elements to come in to to play a

907
00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:35,810
part of how you're going to learn and

908
00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:38,660
then demonstrate how you're going to use

909
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:41,030
these things and there were a few

910
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:43,070
incidents early on where mad bear I

911
00:42:48,670 --> 00:42:46,370
would be reluctant to do something and

912
00:42:51,850 --> 00:42:48,680
he would do the encouragement and say

913
00:42:54,670 --> 00:42:51,860
it's okay you go ahead and you know how

914
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:54,680
to do it he would actually instruct me

915
00:43:01,030 --> 00:42:57,760
to do things and that's the part where

916
00:43:04,030 --> 00:43:01,040
when you hear that instruction or you

917
00:43:06,530 --> 00:43:04,040
hear someone give you that confidence

918
00:43:08,810 --> 00:43:06,540
that says yeah

919
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:08,820
using the words they're saying you're

920
00:43:13,850 --> 00:43:11,760
ready we he wanted to see it

921
00:43:17,150 --> 00:43:13,860
demonstrated he wanted to see me

922
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:17,160
actually go and do the task or the

923
00:43:25,010 --> 00:43:19,290
action of getting involved with these

924
00:43:28,460 --> 00:43:25,020
things so these are crucial for the the

925
00:43:30,980 --> 00:43:28,470
teacher or the mentor to observe because

926
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:30,990
you're going to see a response after you

927
00:43:39,230 --> 00:43:34,290
do the task and if the the response is

928
00:43:43,490 --> 00:43:39,240
not humility or one that is accepting on

929
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:43,500
a very humble level then you would be

930
00:43:50,090 --> 00:43:47,520
very cautious to say I think maybe this

931
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:50,100
may not be someone who we should go any

932
00:43:55,310 --> 00:43:53,040
further with exactly and it sounds like

933
00:43:56,890 --> 00:43:55,320
I mean from looking at all of this and

934
00:43:59,570 --> 00:43:56,900
all of the events that took place

935
00:44:02,210 --> 00:43:59,580
whoever the medicine man was that

936
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:02,220
apprenticed jean-loup boy heart did not

937
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:05,910
screen him thoroughly and really taught

938
00:44:13,180 --> 00:44:08,880
him some powerful things that gene then

939
00:44:16,610 --> 00:44:13,190
used for evil and then when we see it

940
00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:16,620
demonstrated and we see that it is being

941
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:21,120
used for the the wrong intent with all

942
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:24,690
the other factors in this case you see

943
00:44:30,980 --> 00:44:27,660
that it comes out to have there's

944
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:30,990
there's an equation and that equation is

945
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:33,710
you start using even if they would have

946
00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:37,170
started using numerology back in that

947
00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:39,870
time I believe with the right people

948
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:43,020
they could have found him much sooner

949
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:45,770
and they could have prevented that from

950
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:49,410
this this event from happening but

951
00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:51,420
because of the fact that they didn't

952
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:54,660
access the help on the medicine level

953
00:45:01,070 --> 00:44:57,510
soon enough and they waited till this

954
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:01,080
last event to occur that when I was

955
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:04,730
looking into this from this other

956
00:45:11,890 --> 00:45:08,850
perspective which is not using the

957
00:45:16,820 --> 00:45:11,900
videos it's not using anything from

958
00:45:19,940 --> 00:45:16,830
other human accounts that's when I I did

959
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:19,950
make an offering with and we do

960
00:45:26,420 --> 00:45:23,790
and use what is been referred to earlier

961
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:26,430
in the program the sacred tobacco it's

962
00:45:31,609 --> 00:45:30,480
just used for ceremony it's not used for

963
00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:31,619
anything else

964
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:34,740
and when I made that offering these

965
00:45:41,870 --> 00:45:38,490
things started to be revealed that it

966
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:41,880
could have been prevented if they could

967
00:45:50,359 --> 00:45:45,900
have accessed that medicine man earlier

968
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:50,369
that helped the law enforcement to not

969
00:45:55,970 --> 00:45:53,130
only protect themselves because that's

970
00:45:59,240 --> 00:45:55,980
the part that I observed from matt baer

971
00:46:02,750 --> 00:45:59,250
is he was very cautious about not

972
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:02,760
letting his guard down and he knew if he

973
00:46:08,839 --> 00:46:05,910
was going to venture into these areas he

974
00:46:11,870 --> 00:46:08,849
had to have the assistance of other

975
00:46:13,730 --> 00:46:11,880
people with him even if we didn't know

976
00:46:16,339 --> 00:46:13,740
the purpose of what he was doing

977
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:16,349
it's what matt baer would say is the

978
00:46:21,020 --> 00:46:18,450
goodness in you and the goodness in you

979
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:21,030
and the goodness is knew he would have

980
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:23,130
people just present that would be

981
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:26,910
willing just to be there and just having

982
00:46:34,819 --> 00:46:30,930
that available to him it gave him the

983
00:46:37,370 --> 00:46:34,829
ability to go beyond what he could do on

984
00:46:39,099 --> 00:46:37,380
his own he just needed the collective

985
00:46:42,620 --> 00:46:39,109
and it didn't have to be a large number

986
00:46:45,770 --> 00:46:42,630
just a few that would be willing to

987
00:46:48,740 --> 00:46:45,780
participate and they actually were able

988
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:48,750
and I inadvertently I mean I was a part

989
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,170
of that but I found out many years later

990
00:46:57,220 --> 00:46:53,760
what matt baer was doing and he was

991
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:57,230
trying to reveal or have someone reveal

992
00:47:03,980 --> 00:47:00,000
that who they were it was someone who

993
00:47:07,099 --> 00:47:03,990
was doing some behind-the-scenes work to

994
00:47:11,569 --> 00:47:07,109
really create some havoc with the elders

995
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,579
and he identified the individual and it

996
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:13,440
was because of the ceremony that I

997
00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:16,140
happened to be a part of with a few

998
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:18,990
other people but we I didn't make those

999
00:47:25,460 --> 00:47:21,210
connections until maybe 20 years later

1000
00:47:28,849 --> 00:47:25,470
so you start to see that it has to be

1001
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:28,859
done in the proper context and he knew

1002
00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:31,170
he was venturing into a very dangerous

1003
00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:33,750
and and he could be vulnerable so

1004
00:47:40,430 --> 00:47:36,300
he needed a couple other helpers just to

1005
00:47:42,980 --> 00:47:40,440
be around and through that it got him

1006
00:47:45,350 --> 00:47:42,990
the information he needed and that's why

1007
00:47:49,550 --> 00:47:45,360
I say if they would have accessed this

1008
00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:49,560
this helper before after they knew he

1009
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,070
was out for three years they should have

1010
00:47:57,550 --> 00:47:55,200
been accessing the other help knowing

1011
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:57,560
that there was native connections and

1012
00:48:04,490 --> 00:48:00,960
they would have been able to catch him

1013
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:04,500
sooner but it just goes to show that if

1014
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:07,920
we eventually get to the right people we

1015
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:11,940
will find that the goodness will always

1016
00:48:19,130 --> 00:48:16,050
overcome and they cannot override the

1017
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:19,140
goodness when you implement that in the

1018
00:48:23,690 --> 00:48:21,810
correct way so glad to hear you say that

1019
00:48:26,180 --> 00:48:23,700
Michael because that's my belief to the

1020
00:48:30,050 --> 00:48:26,190
light always wins but what a journey

1021
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:30,060
here because it looks like with gene Roy

1022
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:32,010
Hart and the medicine he was using it

1023
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:34,800
really overpowered the community it

1024
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:37,770
overpowered the legal system the star

1025
00:48:41,090 --> 00:48:38,970
prosecutor

1026
00:48:43,130 --> 00:48:41,100
I mean people walked away from this

1027
00:48:45,140 --> 00:48:43,140
turning in their badges and shaking

1028
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:45,150
their heads how could this happen this

1029
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:47,760
was some powerful dark magic that he was

1030
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:49,730
involved with would you say absolutely

1031
00:48:58,940 --> 00:48:55,050
and that's that is why it is so key that

1032
00:49:03,650 --> 00:48:58,950
anyone who has interest in this area and

1033
00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:03,660
I would just recommend to someone ask

1034
00:49:10,580 --> 00:49:07,260
the internal voice that would say why

1035
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:10,590
and if they can't and if you can't come

1036
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:14,370
up with an answer to that or even get an

1037
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:17,250
implication from the people who are

1038
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:19,650
inquiring that they want to learn about

1039
00:49:25,550 --> 00:49:22,800
those things then it's not to be done

1040
00:49:28,430 --> 00:49:25,560
and it really has to be handled in that

1041
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:28,440
that rigid and that strict of a manner

1042
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:31,890
or it's you were going to see more of

1043
00:49:38,930 --> 00:49:35,490
these problems arise and that's why I'm

1044
00:49:42,350 --> 00:49:38,940
I've been very cautious had many

1045
00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:42,360
inquiries over the years and I you just

1046
00:49:46,609 --> 00:49:45,630
can't open that door you just say well

1047
00:49:49,970 --> 00:49:46,619
we'll we'll

1048
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:49,980
talk about it in a few days or maybe in

1049
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:52,470
a few months and you let things pass and

1050
00:50:01,099 --> 00:49:57,119
if nothing develops from it I just say

1051
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:01,109
it really we have to be so cautious and

1052
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:04,710
this I think is the most perfect example

1053
00:50:11,620 --> 00:50:08,970
or the model to say here's look what can

1054
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:11,630
happen yeah this went so horribly

1055
00:50:17,539 --> 00:50:14,880
horribly wrong I mean this these poor

1056
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:17,549
little girls their families it's a scar

1057
00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:20,970
that will never go away and it's a again

1058
00:50:25,940 --> 00:50:22,859
an example like you said a perfect

1059
00:50:29,269 --> 00:50:25,950
example of things gone wrong and it does

1060
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:29,279
it does say these energies are real and

1061
00:50:35,839 --> 00:50:32,400
it's not forces that he was messing with

1062
00:50:38,359 --> 00:50:35,849
and trying to get in to do what he

1063
00:50:41,059 --> 00:50:38,369
wanted turned around and used him and at

1064
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:41,069
the end it cost him his life which it

1065
00:50:45,289 --> 00:50:43,710
should when somebody's on a dark path

1066
00:50:48,499 --> 00:50:45,299
like that would you agree with that

1067
00:50:51,019 --> 00:50:48,509
absolutely and that's why I say when you

1068
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:51,029
do cross that line when you start

1069
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:52,710
implementing and you put those things

1070
00:51:00,670 --> 00:50:56,640
out there there is no immunity and those

1071
00:51:03,259 --> 00:51:00,680
who cross the line have to pay the price

1072
00:51:05,509 --> 00:51:03,269
well you know something really

1073
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:05,519
interesting a little note to what

1074
00:51:12,829 --> 00:51:07,650
Michael that you said a few minutes ago

1075
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:12,839
about using that kind of thing to model

1076
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:15,089
people's thinking or to confuse the

1077
00:51:22,970 --> 00:51:19,650
ideas or create chaos and the Tulsa

1078
00:51:25,789 --> 00:51:22,980
newspapers reported during the trial you

1079
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:25,799
know on which medicine men were present

1080
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:28,650
at the courthouse on what days and I

1081
00:51:32,989 --> 00:51:30,569
remember reading one account that there

1082
00:51:34,729 --> 00:51:32,999
was a medicine man seen burning

1083
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:34,739
something at the four corners of the

1084
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:36,930
courthouse and it was said that it was

1085
00:51:41,979 --> 00:51:40,079
to confuse the jury or to influence the

1086
00:51:44,839 --> 00:51:41,989
jury sorry influenced the jury

1087
00:51:48,229 --> 00:51:44,849
absolutely which goes to the idea that

1088
00:51:53,569 --> 00:51:48,239
you are saying and it works and this is

1089
00:51:56,989 --> 00:51:53,579
why people need to be very aware and if

1090
00:51:59,849 --> 00:51:56,999
they could have kept that individual at

1091
00:52:02,130 --> 00:51:59,859
a further distance from the

1092
00:52:05,729 --> 00:52:02,140
courthouse they wouldn't have been able

1093
00:52:09,749 --> 00:52:05,739
to infuse that element into that that

1094
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:09,759
case and I have in the past used tobacco

1095
00:52:15,269 --> 00:52:12,400
for the right thing when I've been in

1096
00:52:18,930 --> 00:52:15,279
court and basically what you do is you

1097
00:52:22,499 --> 00:52:18,940
project that when the right thing was

1098
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:22,509
done but they say because you didn't

1099
00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:25,569
have a permit or some other legal part

1100
00:52:33,059 --> 00:52:30,430
of it that when we project there is no

1101
00:52:35,339 --> 00:52:33,069
case here and it's just been recent and

1102
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:35,349
I we actually had the district attorney

1103
00:52:43,499 --> 00:52:38,920
get up and cross-examine a native man

1104
00:52:46,380 --> 00:52:43,509
that I've known for 20 years and the DA

1105
00:52:48,809 --> 00:52:46,390
said at the end of his statement there

1106
00:52:51,150 --> 00:52:48,819
are no bad people in this courtroom and

1107
00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:51,160
I just said that's because we had no

1108
00:52:56,819 --> 00:52:53,470
case and they should not have ever

1109
00:52:58,759 --> 00:52:56,829
brought this man into court but these

1110
00:53:01,890 --> 00:52:58,769
are how we can use it for the good and

1111
00:53:04,859 --> 00:53:01,900
unfortunately there are others who have

1112
00:53:10,140 --> 00:53:04,869
used it for not so good and they cross

1113
00:53:12,059 --> 00:53:10,150
that line and what about Michael the the

1114
00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:12,069
ancient one have you heard of that I

1115
00:53:18,930 --> 00:53:14,339
know Renee wanted to ask that question

1116
00:53:22,109 --> 00:53:18,940
yes the ancient one is the element that

1117
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:22,119
is referred to to that sacred tobacco

1118
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:27,130
and each nation has their own version or

1119
00:53:34,799 --> 00:53:31,089
their own particular variety of tobacco

1120
00:53:38,999 --> 00:53:34,809
which is not used for anything other

1121
00:53:41,759 --> 00:53:39,009
than ceremony and the way matt baer

1122
00:53:42,509 --> 00:53:41,769
explained i asked Mia bear I said white

1123
00:53:44,970 --> 00:53:42,519
aback Oh

1124
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:44,980
after looking outside and seeing all the

1125
00:53:50,460 --> 00:53:47,170
variety of plants I said why this

1126
00:53:53,940 --> 00:53:50,470
particular tobacco and he said do you

1127
00:53:57,599 --> 00:53:53,950
recall in history time when the earth

1128
00:54:01,109 --> 00:53:57,609
was purified and it was done with water

1129
00:54:02,940 --> 00:54:01,119
and he said at the story or the legend

1130
00:54:04,589 --> 00:54:02,950
that was handed down to the native

1131
00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:04,599
people he said while they were doing

1132
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:07,390
cleanup these little sprouts came up

1133
00:54:13,590 --> 00:54:10,450
through the silt and when it got seen

1134
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:13,600
and expressed amongst the people

1135
00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:16,480
medicine people came down they stopped

1136
00:54:20,970 --> 00:54:18,400
the cleanup they brought everyone to

1137
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:20,980
where those plants were and they made it

1138
00:54:25,830 --> 00:54:23,290
very clear they said because this is the

1139
00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:25,840
first plant to return to the humans

1140
00:54:33,570 --> 00:54:29,980
after the purification then they said

1141
00:54:36,750 --> 00:54:33,580
this plant will be used to talk to the

1142
00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:36,760
Creator to offer for plants for medicine

1143
00:54:44,010 --> 00:54:41,320
to give this communication that plant

1144
00:54:46,350 --> 00:54:44,020
was the sacred one well thank you for

1145
00:54:49,950 --> 00:54:46,360
that microphone I have to go to a break

1146
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:49,960
in a minute but again this is a really

1147
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:52,390
helpful conversation to have with you or

1148
00:54:56,670 --> 00:54:54,730
so grateful to have you on the show if

1149
00:54:58,890 --> 00:54:56,680
you have a question in our audience

1150
00:55:01,410 --> 00:54:58,900
please write it in the chat room or call

1151
00:55:03,450 --> 00:55:01,420
in eight eight eight nine one nine two

1152
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:03,460
three five five that's eight eight eight

1153
00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:06,850
nine one nine two three five five you

1154
00:55:12,930 --> 00:55:08,860
are listening to Supernatural girls

1155
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:12,940
radio and we will be right back welcome

1156
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:14,890
back everyone you are listening to

1157
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:18,370
Supernatural girls radio and I am your

1158
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:20,650
host Patricia Baker I am here with my

1159
00:55:27,690 --> 00:55:24,940
co-host numerologist pique rene barnett

1160
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:27,700
the host of night vision radio and a

1161
00:55:33,630 --> 00:55:30,610
very talented TV and film producer and

1162
00:55:35,850 --> 00:55:33,640
as somewhat of an expert although she

1163
00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:35,860
won't admit to it on the facts of this

1164
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:38,800
case she's also a native of Oklahoma and

1165
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:42,010
we are also here with Michael Bastien

1166
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:44,410
and Algonquin Native American medicine

1167
00:55:49,050 --> 00:55:46,720
man who was apprenticed to mad bear

1168
00:55:52,370 --> 00:55:49,060
Anderson and now we're going to bring on

1169
00:55:55,620 --> 00:55:52,380
to the show george lugo he is a

1170
00:55:57,180 --> 00:55:55,630
world-renowned psychic medium George has

1171
00:56:00,510 --> 00:55:57,190
worked with people all over the world

1172
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:00,520
many investigators including Scotland

1173
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:03,760
Yard George welcome to the show thank

1174
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:08,170
you boy what a case yeah I kept myself

1175
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:10,240
out of the listen all I'm doing is

1176
00:56:13,740 --> 00:56:11,770
listening to all of this I haven't done

1177
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:13,750
any reading on this I want to have a

1178
00:56:20,580 --> 00:56:16,770
nice clean slate to see what I pick up

1179
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:20,590
Michael really great explaining all of

1180
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:24,240
that you know you did a great job arm

1181
00:56:31,070 --> 00:56:26,730
Harvey

1182
00:56:33,950 --> 00:56:31,080
I did the smoke yes I get this very

1183
00:56:35,870 --> 00:56:33,960
organic feeling with this man and and

1184
00:56:38,570 --> 00:56:35,880
when he did that that was a very brave

1185
00:56:41,660 --> 00:56:38,580
thing and how the smoke works and all of

1186
00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:41,670
that that was just an amazing the one

1187
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:45,030
thing I heard in all of this a couple of

1188
00:56:48,940 --> 00:56:47,730
things I heard a little girl say number

1189
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:48,950
eight ah

1190
00:56:58,370 --> 00:56:55,050
so um um and I think it's the than the

1191
00:57:00,320 --> 00:56:58,380
number of a tenth the were the dwelling

1192
00:57:02,450 --> 00:57:00,330
that they were all in I just heard

1193
00:57:04,490 --> 00:57:02,460
somebody say eight eight they were in a

1194
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:04,500
tent number eight yeah and I think they

1195
00:57:08,030 --> 00:57:06,210
were affecting you

1196
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:08,040
piqué because you kept bringing up eight

1197
00:57:11,690 --> 00:57:10,170
this an eighth that and all this and I

1198
00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:11,700
think they were trying to get it through

1199
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:14,310
that that's real significant that number

1200
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:18,570
eight um I I also got a little girl

1201
00:57:26,810 --> 00:57:24,510
saying um my mother uh-huh um her health

1202
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:26,820
has gone down because what happened this

1203
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:29,700
happened in 77 is that right yes yeah

1204
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:34,050
yeah and I and I got this um saying Shay

1205
00:57:38,540 --> 00:57:36,570
I think she said sherry or yeah I think

1206
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:38,550
it was sherry she mentioned sherry and

1207
00:57:44,420 --> 00:57:42,150
she and she said mom mom and then she

1208
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:44,430
said sherry and then she said I'm okay

1209
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:45,810
like I'm alright

1210
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:47,970
the feeling that I that was that's what

1211
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:51,119
I got out of all of this is so much to

1212
00:57:59,000 --> 00:57:55,200
be said but as far as do any of you know

1213
00:58:02,060 --> 00:57:59,010
the parents at all I don't know them I

1214
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:02,070
do know who they are I'm trying to

1215
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:06,810
remember if if it was any of the parents

1216
00:58:13,910 --> 00:58:08,640
it would have been Laurie farmer's

1217
00:58:16,430 --> 00:58:13,920
mother I think I think I got that right

1218
00:58:18,620 --> 00:58:16,440
she was saying sherry because I was kind

1219
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:18,630
of asking her with myself just like who

1220
00:58:22,910 --> 00:58:20,490
do you mean who do you mean and I just

1221
00:58:26,330 --> 00:58:22,920
heard I think it was sherry or cherry

1222
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:26,340
but I think it was sherry um definitely

1223
00:58:28,970 --> 00:58:28,410
look for that while we're talking here

1224
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:28,980
okay

1225
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:31,290
yeah because I don't at home yeah so I

1226
00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:36,210
just I got that now as far as II as far

1227
00:58:44,100 --> 00:58:37,240
as

1228
00:58:45,810 --> 00:58:44,110
feel that Patricia you did a really

1229
00:58:48,030 --> 00:58:45,820
great description of him through the

1230
00:58:50,130 --> 00:58:48,040
numbers low self-esteem

1231
00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:50,140
you know fatherless family this kind of

1232
00:58:56,250 --> 00:58:54,700
thing and very strong um I I feel that

1233
00:59:01,530 --> 00:58:56,260
he was a fully good looking guy too and

1234
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:01,540
well trusted but dabbled into spiritual

1235
00:59:07,050 --> 00:59:05,440
things and used I believe what I think

1236
00:59:08,730 --> 00:59:07,060
Michael was talking about those medicine

1237
00:59:11,609 --> 00:59:08,740
man or someone that taught him some

1238
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:11,619
stuff but he had like a side like the

1239
00:59:17,940 --> 00:59:15,490
medicine man I don't feel was cautious

1240
00:59:19,530 --> 00:59:17,950
enough well Michael was complex and that

1241
00:59:23,730 --> 00:59:19,540
Michael is his name Michael no his name

1242
00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:23,740
is uh Jean Jean Jean Jean is a complex

1243
00:59:30,090 --> 00:59:27,940
person and even though he may not have

1244
00:59:34,140 --> 00:59:30,100
come across as the sharpest blade in the

1245
00:59:35,820 --> 00:59:34,150
pile he was actually very kind of like

1246
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:35,830
second thought like everything had a

1247
00:59:40,410 --> 00:59:37,570
double meaning to it and he kind of

1248
00:59:42,180 --> 00:59:40,420
chose what he I felt that he was cloaked

1249
00:59:44,910 --> 00:59:42,190
and to be able to walk around the

1250
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:44,920
community freedy like that I feel that

1251
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:47,050
you know he had help but I feel it was a

1252
00:59:53,970 --> 00:59:50,710
darker force with him and could

1253
00:59:59,070 --> 00:59:53,980
recognize the cracks in his personality

1254
01:00:01,710 --> 00:59:59,080
and do a sort of um I don't want to say

1255
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:01,720
possession exactly but a touching of him

1256
01:00:06,300 --> 01:00:03,910
to make him think this way to make him

1257
01:00:09,060 --> 01:00:06,310
do these things up and then he could

1258
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:09,070
pull out of it but I feel that this

1259
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:12,580
darker force kind of cloaked him so he

1260
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:15,850
could walk freely amongst people I also

1261
01:00:20,849 --> 01:00:19,450
feel that there was a younger medicine

1262
01:00:24,630 --> 01:00:20,859
man that taught him some things right

1263
01:00:27,150 --> 01:00:24,640
was he in his 40s or so uh you know I'm

1264
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:27,160
not sure now the medicine man that he

1265
01:00:32,849 --> 01:00:30,160
was captured at at the medicine man's

1266
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,859
cabin he was an old man he's an old man

1267
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:35,200
but there would have been others you

1268
01:00:39,359 --> 01:00:37,570
know I feel that he learned something

1269
01:00:41,940 --> 01:00:39,369
from the old man but there's somebody

1270
01:00:45,050 --> 01:00:41,950
who seems to be like in their mid-40s

1271
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:45,060
that he was associated with that that uh

1272
01:00:50,609 --> 01:00:49,119
show Jean how to do a lot of things but

1273
01:00:54,299 --> 01:00:50,619
mostly for good

1274
01:00:57,569 --> 01:00:54,309
but gene being pulled and taunted by

1275
01:01:01,229 --> 01:00:57,579
this darker side of himself turned it

1276
01:01:04,529 --> 01:01:01,239
into the things that he did and now the

1277
01:01:07,650 --> 01:01:04,539
medicine man that the agents used he was

1278
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:07,660
around 40 he was in his 40s at the time

1279
01:01:13,499 --> 01:01:10,690
and he of course he was obviously

1280
01:01:16,499 --> 01:01:13,509
working for the good and by the way

1281
01:01:21,329 --> 01:01:16,509
Laurie farmer's mother's name is Shari

1282
01:01:26,009 --> 01:01:21,339
oh wow hi yeah good that's good to know

1283
01:01:27,569 --> 01:01:26,019
hmm yeah yeah that's that's right did

1284
01:01:30,209 --> 01:01:27,579
she say anything else or is there a

1285
01:01:31,799 --> 01:01:30,219
message or anything but that that's you

1286
01:01:33,870 --> 01:01:31,809
that she's around her mother that she

1287
01:01:35,579 --> 01:01:33,880
actually the other girls are doing fine

1288
01:01:36,930 --> 01:01:35,589
that they're all there they're all in

1289
01:01:39,959 --> 01:01:36,940
the light they're all fine they're

1290
01:01:46,890 --> 01:01:39,969
innocent so innocent and uh they just

1291
01:01:48,839 --> 01:01:46,900
make me feel like um their families have

1292
01:01:51,059 --> 01:01:48,849
suffered so much their families have

1293
01:01:53,339 --> 01:01:51,069
suffered still are suffering it's more

1294
01:01:55,769 --> 01:01:53,349
of a coping than anything else yeah

1295
01:01:59,579 --> 01:01:55,779
they're babies they're abate yeah

1296
01:02:00,719 --> 01:01:59,589
they're just little babies and um the

1297
01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:00,729
object is made me feel like they're

1298
01:02:04,229 --> 01:02:02,710
still attached to their families and for

1299
01:02:05,519 --> 01:02:04,239
them not to worry that they're all in

1300
01:02:08,819 --> 01:02:05,529
the light they made it you know that

1301
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:08,829
there was no ifs ands or buts about it

1302
01:02:13,349 --> 01:02:11,440
they just went into that world they are

1303
01:02:20,029 --> 01:02:13,359
kind of making me feel what they went

1304
01:02:24,359 --> 01:02:20,039
through yeah hmm um but honest yeah it's

1305
01:02:26,309 --> 01:02:24,369
pretty horrible but the this guy gene I

1306
01:02:27,989 --> 01:02:26,319
just feel like you know Patricia oh

1307
01:02:29,579 --> 01:02:27,999
right on with the numbers man that was

1308
01:02:32,999 --> 01:02:29,589
like so close that's the feelings that I

1309
01:02:36,359 --> 01:02:33,009
was getting about this person no I feel

1310
01:02:38,069 --> 01:02:36,369
that people that it he was able to kind

1311
01:02:40,319 --> 01:02:38,079
of like fool people did he have this

1312
01:02:42,989 --> 01:02:40,329
cloaking thing about himself and that's

1313
01:02:44,989 --> 01:02:42,999
why he keep getting this feeling I also

1314
01:02:48,469 --> 01:02:44,999
feel that he's still dangerous

1315
01:02:52,609 --> 01:02:48,479
yeah I still feel that he can cross

1316
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:52,619
cross here I know that he's being um I

1317
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:56,170
don't know like like contained in a

1318
01:03:01,890 --> 01:02:58,960
sense but he is able to move freely but

1319
01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:01,900
can't really do anything like you know

1320
01:03:06,620 --> 01:03:03,990
to anyone but can do

1321
01:03:08,930 --> 01:03:06,630
was done to him as far as like finding

1322
01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:08,940
somebody with low self-esteem right

1323
01:03:15,140 --> 01:03:11,700
getting into them influencing them so I

1324
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:15,150
feel he still kind of has that I feel

1325
01:03:19,730 --> 01:03:18,000
like he's walking the earth in his town

1326
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:19,740
and it's interesting you mentioned to

1327
01:03:25,790 --> 01:03:22,530
cave I felt that that was one of the

1328
01:03:29,660 --> 01:03:25,800
places that he was staying in located in

1329
01:03:32,810 --> 01:03:29,670
a cave and then just a lot of he makes

1330
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:32,820
me feel himself personally in yeah real

1331
01:03:38,090 --> 01:03:34,770
tortured person spent a lot of time

1332
01:03:41,420 --> 01:03:38,100
alone spent a lot of time with God I

1333
01:03:43,730 --> 01:03:41,430
feel like wanting to use a knife I don't

1334
01:03:47,570 --> 01:03:43,740
know if he did use knives but wanting to

1335
01:03:50,330 --> 01:03:47,580
and but but didn't didn't do it the guy

1336
01:03:52,609 --> 01:03:50,340
had some skill different definitely had

1337
01:03:54,350 --> 01:03:52,619
some skills but as far as it's a

1338
01:03:58,190 --> 01:03:54,360
spiritual world yeah it was very

1339
01:04:00,620 --> 01:03:58,200
distorted I get a lot of static with it

1340
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:00,630
I am trying to figure it out in him

1341
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:02,970
having to deal with it and like

1342
01:04:07,010 --> 01:04:05,490
adrenaline rush the human part of him is

1343
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:07,020
the adrenaline rush of doing these

1344
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:09,450
things and then the other part of him is

1345
01:04:15,740 --> 01:04:13,770
very sad inside I feel um and in some

1346
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:15,750
ways remorseful but then pull away from

1347
01:04:20,060 --> 01:04:17,940
that as soon as he found another target

1348
01:04:23,030 --> 01:04:20,070
whatever that is you know breaking into

1349
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:23,040
a place or killing someone or that type

1350
01:04:29,330 --> 01:04:26,450
of thing I just felt that he was pretty

1351
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:29,340
but all put together in a fairly good

1352
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:32,730
package you naming so he can yeah and so

1353
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:35,010
he could full people he was really good

1354
01:04:39,770 --> 01:04:38,400
at that um and I get this I guess

1355
01:04:41,359 --> 01:04:39,780
somebody's saying yeah he can never go

1356
01:04:43,330 --> 01:04:41,369
back and I don't know what they mean by

1357
01:04:46,580 --> 01:04:43,340
that but like he could never go back so

1358
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:46,590
maybe maybe have another earthly round

1359
01:04:53,330 --> 01:04:48,720
or something I'm not sure exactly but I

1360
01:04:58,160 --> 01:04:53,340
just feel like that um we don't run it

1361
01:04:59,690 --> 01:04:58,170
back God him back where he is I think

1362
01:05:02,660 --> 01:04:59,700
they're trying to tell me that he is

1363
01:05:04,970 --> 01:05:02,670
maybe tried to come back but he can't so

1364
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:04,980
he's trying to influence someone like

1365
01:05:09,740 --> 01:05:06,720
him and it might even be in the same

1366
01:05:12,500 --> 01:05:09,750
town so you know it's something else

1367
01:05:14,510 --> 01:05:12,510
like this occurs again I feel that he

1368
01:05:16,490 --> 01:05:14,520
may have some kind of influence in it I

1369
01:05:17,930 --> 01:05:16,500
mean I'm not exactly sure that's kind of

1370
01:05:21,980 --> 01:05:17,940
what it feels like to me

1371
01:05:27,010 --> 01:05:21,990
um and then also the knowing you know he

1372
01:05:30,109 --> 01:05:27,020
knows a lot and I get the feeling of the

1373
01:05:32,569 --> 01:05:30,119
overpowering of someone and and having

1374
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:32,579
that person's life in your hands and can

1375
01:05:37,970 --> 01:05:36,000
fully controlling it and taking it when

1376
01:05:40,250 --> 01:05:37,980
they want and I just get that it's like

1377
01:05:42,140 --> 01:05:40,260
a I get this kind of adrenaline rush

1378
01:05:44,059 --> 01:05:42,150
with this and I just feel like that was

1379
01:05:48,140 --> 01:05:44,069
kind of what he was doing with these

1380
01:05:52,579 --> 01:05:48,150
little girls arm also prison life for

1381
01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:52,589
him was not good he was on guard and all

1382
01:05:57,020 --> 01:05:54,569
the time because of what he his crimes

1383
01:05:59,359 --> 01:05:57,030
and he had to look over his shoulder and

1384
01:06:02,510 --> 01:05:59,369
I also feel that he practiced some of

1385
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:02,520
the things that he knew there also may

1386
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:05,160
be quietly or behind the scenes but you

1387
01:06:08,660 --> 01:06:06,480
know because he needed protection while

1388
01:06:10,940 --> 01:06:08,670
he was there that they still got him

1389
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:10,950
they still took him out yeah I mean that

1390
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:13,680
heart attack is that right yeah yes so I

1391
01:06:18,500 --> 01:06:16,319
think they did an autopsy and they there

1392
01:06:21,230 --> 01:06:18,510
was no explanation he was the perfect

1393
01:06:24,620 --> 01:06:21,240
physical specimen he was an athlete he

1394
01:06:27,349 --> 01:06:24,630
was 26 years old yeah and I just feel

1395
01:06:29,599 --> 01:06:27,359
like uh but I also feel that in prison

1396
01:06:33,050 --> 01:06:29,609
he was like develop like he was really

1397
01:06:36,260 --> 01:06:33,060
strong so he wasn't like working out or

1398
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:36,270
something like this gentleman but I feel

1399
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:39,210
that they it was time for him to go the

1400
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:42,290
forces that are out there you know good

1401
01:06:48,290 --> 01:06:46,290
over takes everything just about but but

1402
01:06:50,599 --> 01:06:48,300
things slip through the cracks and he

1403
01:06:51,559 --> 01:06:50,609
was one of them and uh but it finally

1404
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:51,569
caught up with him

1405
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:54,569
and it took him go ahead I'm sorry I was

1406
01:06:57,859 --> 01:06:56,130
gonna say George did you find that

1407
01:07:00,470 --> 01:06:57,869
because he was such a terrible rule

1408
01:07:02,809 --> 01:07:00,480
breaker and he lived in his head most of

1409
01:07:06,050 --> 01:07:02,819
the time yeah people thought his quiet

1410
01:07:08,270 --> 01:07:06,060
side was condoning things that were

1411
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:08,280
going on so he was mr. nice guy when

1412
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:10,290
instead he was really brewing something

1413
01:07:15,710 --> 01:07:13,710
in the head to take out somebody else at

1414
01:07:18,859 --> 01:07:15,720
another way because of this restriction

1415
01:07:21,020 --> 01:07:18,869
this foursquare his angers at things not

1416
01:07:22,849 --> 01:07:21,030
being given to him the way he thought

1417
01:07:24,530 --> 01:07:22,859
they should be yeah I thought that

1418
01:07:26,270 --> 01:07:24,540
everything out of his mouth was kind of

1419
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:26,280
like a double speak as like a forked

1420
01:07:30,500 --> 01:07:27,930
tongue as it has a double meaning

1421
01:07:31,259 --> 01:07:30,510
and so yeah I would caution cautious

1422
01:07:33,179 --> 01:07:31,269
about everything

1423
01:07:36,809 --> 01:07:33,189
he did the way he walked the way

1424
01:07:38,939 --> 01:07:36,819
presented himself uh you know I seem

1425
01:07:40,380 --> 01:07:38,949
like a normal average person you know

1426
01:07:42,539 --> 01:07:40,390
kind of doing that but kind of like us

1427
01:07:44,249 --> 01:07:42,549
almost like in like you said athletic

1428
01:07:46,799 --> 01:07:44,259
you know he was sort of I kind of

1429
01:07:47,999 --> 01:07:46,809
outgoing that way but kind of quiet and

1430
01:07:51,839 --> 01:07:48,009
it's very hard

1431
01:07:55,649 --> 01:07:51,849
he had an arrogance about him that you

1432
01:07:57,239 --> 01:07:55,659
know probably bolide that inadequacy

1433
01:07:59,009 --> 01:07:57,249
thing pique yeah right

1434
01:08:00,659 --> 01:07:59,019
usually people have that common

1435
01:08:02,519 --> 01:08:00,669
arrogance it's usually covering up the

1436
01:08:04,769 --> 01:08:02,529
opposite oh yeah they carry that john

1437
01:08:07,409 --> 01:08:04,779
waite walk when they have nothing there

1438
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:07,419
to make back it up with yourself guy had

1439
01:08:12,029 --> 01:08:09,729
no vitamins at all right yeah like you

1440
01:08:15,569 --> 01:08:12,039
had an absolutely eye doughnut and um

1441
01:08:18,419 --> 01:08:15,579
but it was fragile and and the people

1442
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:18,429
that knew him well he would stay away

1443
01:08:24,059 --> 01:08:21,489
from and so yeah and so he would just

1444
01:08:26,459 --> 01:08:24,069
constantly kind of on the prowl kind of

1445
01:08:30,180 --> 01:08:26,469
scoping things out you know just always

1446
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:30,190
kind of doing that and and in very

1447
01:08:35,459 --> 01:08:33,250
tormented in his head and in his soul

1448
01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:35,469
but a lot of things that Michael said

1449
01:08:38,220 --> 01:08:37,089
was right on the money - I mean was just

1450
01:08:39,809 --> 01:08:38,230
really good stuff that he was talking

1451
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:39,819
about you know medicine and this kind of

1452
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:44,650
thing um um he abused yeah like yeah you

1453
01:08:47,970 --> 01:08:46,449
know he's gone now the girls are fine

1454
01:08:49,410 --> 01:08:47,980
the girls are perfect and there's

1455
01:08:51,839 --> 01:08:49,420
nothing wrong with them at all I get

1456
01:08:54,539 --> 01:08:51,849
nothing all I got was my mother is

1457
01:08:57,299 --> 01:08:54,549
suffering or has been suffering they all

1458
01:08:59,370 --> 01:08:57,309
have and but but they just kept hearing

1459
01:09:02,309 --> 01:08:59,380
mom mom mom

1460
01:09:04,019 --> 01:09:02,319
and then I heard Nate like 10th a or

1461
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:04,029
number eight and it seemed like a

1462
01:09:09,269 --> 01:09:06,369
dwelling of some sort and then I just

1463
01:09:11,180 --> 01:09:09,279
heard and I was asking her who are you

1464
01:09:16,019 --> 01:09:11,190
talking about you know she said sherry

1465
01:09:18,299 --> 01:09:16,029
so so it was sherry how it was okay and

1466
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:18,309
uh to let her know that she's okay

1467
01:09:23,430 --> 01:09:21,759
sherry still around yeah yeah okay cuz I

1468
01:09:25,649 --> 01:09:23,440
don't feel her yeah you know I only get

1469
01:09:26,819 --> 01:09:25,659
people that have crossed and um yeah

1470
01:09:31,890 --> 01:09:26,829
she's still around

1471
01:09:35,819 --> 01:09:31,900
um her parents are probably might be

1472
01:09:37,289 --> 01:09:35,829
around you know in their 60s and you

1473
01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:37,299
know they're not that old her father is

1474
01:09:43,209 --> 01:09:39,670
still a practicing physician in Tulsa

1475
01:09:45,309 --> 01:09:43,219
and her mother started a

1476
01:09:48,549 --> 01:09:45,319
the Oklahoma chapter of parents of

1477
01:09:50,620 --> 01:09:48,559
Murdered Children you know well wonder

1478
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:50,630
this were all stepping up because the

1479
01:09:57,310 --> 01:09:52,369
the feeling is like she's you know very

1480
01:09:59,649 --> 01:09:57,320
proud of her family and just actually in

1481
01:10:01,479 --> 01:09:59,659
a bad way turned out to be a good thing

1482
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:01,489
because a mother's doing this now means

1483
01:10:07,239 --> 01:10:03,920
so out of all this horror something

1484
01:10:09,850 --> 01:10:07,249
positive came out of it but yeah it took

1485
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:09,860
a toll on her and she makes me feel like

1486
01:10:14,709 --> 01:10:11,690
her mom working with this organization

1487
01:10:18,969 --> 01:10:14,719
is sort of like therapy for her to in a

1488
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:18,979
sense to her go through other parents

1489
01:10:21,489 --> 01:10:20,090
and what they've gone through and this

1490
01:10:23,649 --> 01:10:21,499
kind of thing

1491
01:10:25,290 --> 01:10:23,659
there is a was direct oh you probably

1492
01:10:28,419 --> 01:10:25,300
don't know but I feel like there was

1493
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:28,429
like trees planted for these girls or

1494
01:10:35,410 --> 01:10:32,570
some sort of memorial for these girls um

1495
01:10:38,319 --> 01:10:35,420
did you say Laurie was her name yeah

1496
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:38,329
yeah was really don't know this but I

1497
01:10:41,649 --> 01:10:39,530
thought there was a some kind of a

1498
01:10:44,169 --> 01:10:41,659
monument erected maybe with their names

1499
01:10:47,169 --> 01:10:44,179
on it or a children's park she makes me

1500
01:10:49,629 --> 01:10:47,179
feel like there's like a park or a wall

1501
01:10:51,700 --> 01:10:49,639
with murdered children on it and then

1502
01:10:53,620 --> 01:10:51,710
like a playground right next to it like

1503
01:10:55,569 --> 01:10:53,630
but things that kids can climb on and

1504
01:10:56,919 --> 01:10:55,579
all that feels kind of like this I don't

1505
01:11:01,689 --> 01:10:56,929
know if that exists or not but this kind

1506
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:01,699
of what she's showing me oh yeah so yeah

1507
01:11:05,169 --> 01:11:03,050
I don't know but she makes me feel like

1508
01:11:07,540 --> 01:11:05,179
this what her mother's doing is also a

1509
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:07,550
very good thing for other parents even

1510
01:11:13,810 --> 01:11:09,440
though it's a sad thing it's a way to

1511
01:11:15,339 --> 01:11:13,820
cope and deal and heal so um yeah that's

1512
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:15,349
what that's what I'm getting out of all

1513
01:11:20,830 --> 01:11:18,170
of this the Boy George let me just ask

1514
01:11:22,750 --> 01:11:20,840
you a quest to because Laurie comes

1515
01:11:24,609 --> 01:11:22,760
across to me anyways as the eternal

1516
01:11:28,089 --> 01:11:24,619
optimist but much more contemplative

1517
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:28,099
about this event then Michelle or Denise

1518
01:11:33,250 --> 01:11:31,010
do you pick up something similar about

1519
01:11:36,310 --> 01:11:33,260
her I mean she seems still kind of

1520
01:11:38,910 --> 01:11:36,320
mulling this over and trying to go

1521
01:11:41,799 --> 01:11:38,920
deeper with it about an understanding uh

1522
01:11:45,459 --> 01:11:41,809
this is Denise this is a dead child no

1523
01:11:47,259 --> 01:11:45,469
this is Laurie Oh Laurie Oh Laurie's to

1524
01:11:52,779 --> 01:11:47,269
me Laurie came across as being very

1525
01:11:54,729 --> 01:11:52,789
bright um a doer you know like you know

1526
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:54,739
I mean like I feel like she you know

1527
01:11:58,479 --> 01:11:56,690
Souls cannot change a life path it can

1528
01:12:01,209 --> 01:11:58,489
mess around with your journey but they

1529
01:12:03,820 --> 01:12:01,219
can nudge and I feel like her light with

1530
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:03,830
her mother is very very special and and

1531
01:12:09,459 --> 01:12:07,090
so she's able to help her mother or

1532
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:09,469
bring things to her mother and her

1533
01:12:13,900 --> 01:12:11,449
mother has to be sensitive enough to

1534
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:13,910
recognize it and go with it but her

1535
01:12:19,270 --> 01:12:16,130
mother has a lot of tenacity she says

1536
01:12:21,729 --> 01:12:19,280
her mother has a lot of tenacity and and

1537
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:21,739
a lot of things have fallen into place

1538
01:12:28,270 --> 01:12:24,650
and a lot of help has come to her but

1539
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:28,280
she's got the the the oomph to kind of

1540
01:12:32,830 --> 01:12:31,370
get it done and she makes me feel like

1541
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:32,840
her mom's gone through a lot of red tape

1542
01:12:38,290 --> 01:12:36,410
and to get things done but has done it I

1543
01:12:40,270 --> 01:12:38,300
don't know I mean I feel like there's a

1544
01:12:42,310 --> 01:12:40,280
Memorial Park you know some sort of like

1545
01:12:44,500 --> 01:12:42,320
a little section of a main part that

1546
01:12:46,300 --> 01:12:44,510
that like a Children's Memorial Park or

1547
01:12:48,670 --> 01:12:46,310
something something like that it might

1548
01:12:51,189 --> 01:12:48,680
be in the works or it's already done but

1549
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:51,199
I also feel like a plant eyes yeah I

1550
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:53,810
also feel like a planting my planting of

1551
01:12:59,140 --> 01:12:56,570
trees and bushes dedicated to kids or

1552
01:13:00,820 --> 01:12:59,150
one to her for sure but I also get

1553
01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:00,830
flowers and this type of thing when I

1554
01:13:05,050 --> 01:13:02,960
get people like benches or people can

1555
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:05,060
sit and you know I have a conversation

1556
01:13:10,540 --> 01:13:06,710
with their children that kind of thing

1557
01:13:16,660 --> 01:13:10,550
so yeah um I wouldn't be a bit surprised

1558
01:13:20,500 --> 01:13:16,670
yeah and then um um now it has genes

1559
01:13:24,750 --> 01:13:20,510
mother crossed over yes okay because I

1560
01:13:28,930 --> 01:13:24,760
get three women and I feel that this is

1561
01:13:31,510 --> 01:13:28,940
probably his they seem to be elders um

1562
01:13:33,340 --> 01:13:31,520
and I don't know there's something about

1563
01:13:35,410 --> 01:13:33,350
you know talking to him about all this

1564
01:13:38,590 --> 01:13:35,420
and he's gone through a lot he has he

1565
01:13:42,939 --> 01:13:38,600
has to feel and continuously feel the

1566
01:13:45,550 --> 01:13:42,949
pain that he's created um here back here

1567
01:13:48,910 --> 01:13:45,560
with the the parents and this and the

1568
01:13:51,130 --> 01:13:48,920
family members that basically paid them

1569
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:51,140
you know and and I know that there's

1570
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:53,449
some forgiveness involved here and he's

1571
01:13:58,240 --> 01:13:56,930
all about trying to correct all that but

1572
01:14:00,640 --> 01:13:58,250
he just makes me feel that he just had a

1573
01:14:02,740 --> 01:14:00,650
really rough time of it he tried to make

1574
01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:02,750
sense out of a gene trying to make sense

1575
01:14:06,850 --> 01:14:04,910
out of everything but it was just once

1576
01:14:08,779 --> 01:14:06,860
after his first kill and all that it was

1577
01:14:10,850 --> 01:14:08,789
just like it was overpowering

1578
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:10,860
and then whatever this dark forest was

1579
01:14:14,689 --> 01:14:13,050
just kind of had them you know he wasn't

1580
01:14:16,810 --> 01:14:14,699
like it wasn't like a full possession it

1581
01:14:19,220 --> 01:14:16,820
was just like this nudging this this

1582
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:19,230
partial thing that would get into him

1583
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:21,210
and you know he could feel himself kind

1584
01:14:26,660 --> 01:14:24,239
of surging inside and then select his

1585
01:14:30,290 --> 01:14:26,670
target he also makes me feel that he was

1586
01:14:32,660 --> 01:14:30,300
relaxed at times and things would show

1587
01:14:34,580 --> 01:14:32,670
up almost like light up for him and then

1588
01:14:37,310 --> 01:14:34,590
he'd go oh that's the next one right

1589
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:37,320
there or he get methodical about who he

1590
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:39,750
was going to do next so but so you know

1591
01:14:44,750 --> 01:14:41,250
but it's over I mean that whole thing is

1592
01:14:46,339 --> 01:14:44,760
over and he is where he is um I know

1593
01:14:48,169 --> 01:14:46,349
this is gonna sound really crazy I don't

1594
01:14:50,209 --> 01:14:48,179
feel like he's like burning in hell

1595
01:14:53,859 --> 01:14:50,219
anything like that he's just in the

1596
01:14:56,540 --> 01:14:53,869
further he's just in this other world

1597
01:14:59,600 --> 01:14:56,550
trying to make a difference I really

1598
01:15:02,299 --> 01:14:59,610
kind of feel that he's trying to correct

1599
01:15:04,100 --> 01:15:02,309
his wrongs but that urge is still pretty

1600
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:04,110
strong in him and he's kind of in a

1601
01:15:08,540 --> 01:15:06,090
different place than most souls that I

1602
01:15:10,759 --> 01:15:08,550
see so let's go to this place that he's

1603
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:10,769
in is is like in a place where he's sort

1604
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:15,210
of stuck not limbo but just kind of like

1605
01:15:20,509 --> 01:15:18,960
has to feel these things that these

1606
01:15:22,549 --> 01:15:20,519
people that are left behind with all

1607
01:15:24,620 --> 01:15:22,559
this pain he has to feel it constantly

1608
01:15:27,049 --> 01:15:24,630
and I know he's trying to change to turn

1609
01:15:28,819 --> 01:15:27,059
things around and change things but it's

1610
01:15:31,069 --> 01:15:28,829
a long haul for him I don't know it just

1611
01:15:32,750 --> 01:15:31,079
feels like that I also feel that people

1612
01:15:34,399 --> 01:15:32,760
in that town you know remember what

1613
01:15:38,209 --> 01:15:34,409
happened and there are some people that

1614
01:15:41,299 --> 01:15:38,219
during that period of time feel almost

1615
01:15:45,529 --> 01:15:41,309
him like walking by like the almost seen

1616
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:45,539
one street still so hmm is a strong

1617
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:47,699
energy they're strong strong thing there

1618
01:15:53,419 --> 01:15:50,489
anyway yes but I got you know George

1619
01:15:55,220 --> 01:15:53,429
this is really good information and I

1620
01:15:58,160 --> 01:15:55,230
think what people need to understand

1621
01:16:01,129 --> 01:15:58,170
about these dark entities is that they

1622
01:16:03,140 --> 01:16:01,139
can be very seductive and absolutely you

1623
01:16:04,430 --> 01:16:03,150
know they can they can tell you well do

1624
01:16:06,589 --> 01:16:04,440
this I mean they don't come out and say

1625
01:16:08,660 --> 01:16:06,599
do this but that's that nudging you talk

1626
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:08,670
about the pushing people in a certain

1627
01:16:13,279 --> 01:16:11,010
direction to act in a certain way with

1628
01:16:14,959 --> 01:16:13,289
promises of power or superiority or

1629
01:16:18,290 --> 01:16:14,969
whatever the heck it is they're into

1630
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:18,300
right that's how they they continue

1631
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:21,360
along this relationship path with people

1632
01:16:25,740 --> 01:16:22,449
like Jean

1633
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:25,750
very heart and they hook them in and

1634
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:27,610
like you said it wasn't a full

1635
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:29,050
possession I believe you're absolutely

1636
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:31,210
right about that this was more of a

1637
01:16:37,919 --> 01:16:34,449
partnership but that entity definitely

1638
01:16:40,410 --> 01:16:37,929
had the upper hand so it's again a good

1639
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:40,420
example of not getting involved in these

1640
01:16:46,740 --> 01:16:43,360
these types of energies it's something

1641
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:46,750
to stay long way away from and yeah

1642
01:16:52,620 --> 01:16:49,810
those darker forces are those darker

1643
01:16:55,950 --> 01:16:52,630
forces are always looking for a crack up

1644
01:16:58,169 --> 01:16:55,960
for like a weakness in you yeah that's

1645
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:58,179
exactly what they're looking for

1646
01:17:02,820 --> 01:17:00,640
yeah and yeah that's absolutely right

1647
01:17:04,950 --> 01:17:02,830
and oh my goodness is there anything

1648
01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:04,960
else that you pick up on the overall

1649
01:17:09,510 --> 01:17:07,510
issue of this entity and how it was

1650
01:17:10,860 --> 01:17:09,520
using gene and how it overpowered the

1651
01:17:12,810 --> 01:17:10,870
system I mean this is a very powerful

1652
01:17:15,780 --> 01:17:12,820
entity yeah well I think that Michael

1653
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:15,790
was saying about clouding and sort of

1654
01:17:20,100 --> 01:17:17,890
like cloaking things and all of that

1655
01:17:22,740 --> 01:17:20,110
yeah I was absolutely accurate I really

1656
01:17:24,930 --> 01:17:22,750
felt that I feel like this he was able

1657
01:17:27,060 --> 01:17:24,940
to travel in the area that he lived in

1658
01:17:30,209 --> 01:17:27,070
or wherever this was but the cave was

1659
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:30,219
and his town and all that and there's

1660
01:17:37,260 --> 01:17:34,530
just kind of a haze almost that that

1661
01:17:39,300 --> 01:17:37,270
anyone who knew him or suspected him

1662
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:39,310
they were kind of fearful and not say

1663
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:41,170
anything I also feel like there was

1664
01:17:48,330 --> 01:17:46,090
somebody else involved dad had um oh man

1665
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:48,340
some type of medicine were where they

1666
01:17:54,330 --> 01:17:51,850
could arm I don't know I just feel like

1667
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:54,340
somebody is crying but almost like a

1668
01:17:59,100 --> 01:17:56,560
medicine man that is crying because they

1669
01:18:01,250 --> 01:17:59,110
had something to do with his learning

1670
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:01,260
and maybe doing it prematurely or

1671
01:18:05,430 --> 01:18:03,489
something of that and he wasn't ready

1672
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:05,440
even though he's seemed to be ready I

1673
01:18:10,020 --> 01:18:07,570
feel that he could win you over I feel

1674
01:18:11,850 --> 01:18:10,030
that gene can win you over pretty easily

1675
01:18:14,180 --> 01:18:11,860
you know it seemed like a all right guy

1676
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:14,190
and whoever took him on to teach him I

1677
01:18:19,950 --> 01:18:17,410
feel is sort of sad because of you know

1678
01:18:22,410 --> 01:18:19,960
didn't it was too premature and didn't

1679
01:18:25,890 --> 01:18:22,420
see it you know or gene was able to snow

1680
01:18:28,830 --> 01:18:25,900
him or the note he's not everybody in

1681
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:28,840
Patricia you remarked on you know there

1682
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:30,730
was like a thousand or more people at

1683
01:18:35,489 --> 01:18:33,730
his funeral it was he was very supported

1684
01:18:39,719 --> 01:18:35,499
people were raising money

1685
01:18:41,939 --> 01:18:39,729
- for his defense it was crazy yeah it

1686
01:18:44,399 --> 01:18:41,949
was slackening well yeah it was crazy

1687
01:18:47,549 --> 01:18:44,409
the hard part is when you take a look at

1688
01:18:49,589 --> 01:18:47,559
somebody like him he's like pancake he's

1689
01:18:52,379 --> 01:18:49,599
got the two sides to him depends on what

1690
01:18:55,500 --> 01:18:52,389
side he's trying to show people this man

1691
01:18:57,209 --> 01:18:55,510
was extremely intelligent but he knew

1692
01:18:59,009 --> 01:18:57,219
how to manipulate people he would live

1693
01:19:01,169 --> 01:18:59,019
in his head to watch what others did and

1694
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:01,179
he would turn around and use it against

1695
01:19:06,089 --> 01:19:04,449
them this a lot of us came across thank

1696
01:19:09,839 --> 01:19:06,099
you for giving me Rene his mother's

1697
01:19:11,850 --> 01:19:09,849
birthday because his mother had major

1698
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:11,860
issues with men in her lifetime and she

1699
01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:14,650
had many things to say which actually

1700
01:19:20,489 --> 01:19:17,110
tormented him throughout his life and

1701
01:19:22,529 --> 01:19:20,499
the ironic part is she died in her four

1702
01:19:24,270 --> 01:19:22,539
year which dealt with some major health

1703
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:24,280
issues that she was never able to

1704
01:19:30,299 --> 01:19:27,360
release because of him mm-hmm

1705
01:19:33,089 --> 01:19:30,309
interesting oh my gosh

1706
01:19:35,489 --> 01:19:33,099
oh god yes I mean this is a wonderful

1707
01:19:37,859 --> 01:19:35,499
discussion to have on a very difficult

1708
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:37,869
difficult subject and George we heard

1709
01:19:43,290 --> 01:19:39,489
the emotion in your voice as you

1710
01:19:45,870 --> 01:19:43,300
contacted Lorie and Michelle and Denis

1711
01:19:47,459 --> 01:19:45,880
and and again yeah thank you enough I

1712
01:19:49,709 --> 01:19:47,469
know how hard that is when you're

1713
01:19:53,430 --> 01:19:49,719
talking to people on the side who had a

1714
01:19:55,589 --> 01:19:53,440
very traumatic passing such as this and

1715
01:19:57,629 --> 01:19:55,599
it's not easy I know yeah it's how I

1716
01:20:00,930 --> 01:19:57,639
could be kind of difficult at times I

1717
01:20:04,290 --> 01:20:00,940
feel a lot of it you know I just uh so

1718
01:20:06,779 --> 01:20:04,300
yeah these are hard ones I bet yeah yeah

1719
01:20:09,149 --> 01:20:06,789
it's it's very difficult and I just want

1720
01:20:12,419 --> 01:20:09,159
to keep honoring their memory over this

1721
01:20:15,810 --> 01:20:12,429
absolutely because they are the light

1722
01:20:18,209 --> 01:20:15,820
they are the innocent little girls in

1723
01:20:20,339 --> 01:20:18,219
this that we always have to remember the

1724
01:20:22,939 --> 01:20:20,349
light always wins and as you mentioned

1725
01:20:25,469 --> 01:20:22,949
they are in the light and lorries is

1726
01:20:27,719 --> 01:20:25,479
specifically is still with her mother

1727
01:20:31,100 --> 01:20:27,729
and helping her mother on her journey

1728
01:20:34,529 --> 01:20:31,110
even now and and that's that's a very

1729
01:20:36,989 --> 01:20:34,539
beautiful thing to know but the rest of

1730
01:20:37,649 --> 01:20:36,999
this my goodness I can't thank all of

1731
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:37,659
you enough

1732
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:41,650
Renee Michael George P K for all of your

1733
01:20:48,180 --> 01:20:45,130
insights and all of the deeper messages

1734
01:20:48,990 --> 01:20:48,190
of this this is the battle the light and

1735
01:20:51,630 --> 01:20:49,000
the darkness

1736
01:20:54,210 --> 01:20:51,640
how conscious do you want to be and can

1737
01:20:55,290 --> 01:20:54,220
you be and can you live your life with

1738
01:20:59,460 --> 01:20:55,300
an open heart

1739
01:21:01,500 --> 01:20:59,470
can you walk the path with a heart as we

1740
01:21:03,540 --> 01:21:01,510
all are able to contact more and more of

1741
01:21:06,480 --> 01:21:03,550
these energies we need to ask ourselves

1742
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:06,490
that question can we walk the path with

1743
01:21:12,630 --> 01:21:09,760
a heart thank you everybody for this

1744
01:21:14,910 --> 01:21:12,640
evenings discussion on the Oklahoma Girl

1745
01:21:18,060 --> 01:21:14,920
Scout murders thank you for joining us

1746
01:21:20,700 --> 01:21:18,070
and we will be back next week in the